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Military bases struggling with personnel shortages, internal review finds

Except that those issues are not exclusive to the Materiel Management Tech trade, this is across the CAF. From a base salary perspective, I think many trades within the CAF are overpaid while some are underpaid. Our pay structure is apparently designed to compete with people doing a lot of overtime when, in fact, most CAF members don't. I'd be curious to see how many MMTs stay past 6PM on a regular basis. I bet you it is not a majority.

Having OT in the CAF would most likely improve QoL significantly.

Would you agree with a lower base salary but with overtime compensation?

Wait wait wait, so now if a CAF member isn't working overtime they aren't valuable enough for the current salary levels ? What's wrong with someone getting their tasks done in the 8hr work day ?

You are showing the exact reasons our pay is tied to rank and not hours. Its a dogs breakfast if you try to go otherwise. Lets also remember we are paid 24/7/365. Hence the reason I can call in the CFB Halifax, Blog Traffic section on a Sat at noon to move parts. How would you do over time for ships ? I was 141 days onboard FRE in 2020 with no time off. Imagine that OT bill.

Id rather "time in lieu" as the overtime the CAF would owe me would be taxed out the wazoo.
 
We used to know better but that was before they trying to justify keeping Montreal open and the jobs in Quebec. Central storage works great if you have a dedicated delivery service attached to it but we got rid of the cosmos decades ago and along with them the scheduled flights between bases. Amazon works only because they have the delivery service to go with the warehousing.

Preach brother!
 
Wait wait wait, so now if a CAF member isn't working overtime they aren't valuable enough for the current salary levels ? What's wrong with someone getting their tasks done in the 8hr work day ?

You are showing the exact reasons our pay is tied to rank and not hours. Its a dogs breakfast if you try to go otherwise. Lets also remember we are paid 24/7/365. Hence the reason I can call in the CFB Halifax, Blog Traffic section on a Sat at noon to move parts. How would you do over time for ships ? I was 141 days onboard FRE in 2020 with no time off. Imagine that OT bill.

Id rather "time in lieu" as the overtime the CAF would owe me would be taxed out the wazoo.
So, you don’t agree that someone working 60 hours a week is more valuable than someone working 30 or 40 hours??? If you get re-called on a Saturday afternoon to move parts, you get overtime. What’s the issue with this concept?

141 days at sea, but you had time off it was just on a ship. You are compensated for being on a ship through your SDA and for being deployed through a tax-free allowance. Somehow, the CCG is able to manage this...
 
I suggest anyone who is wondering why we have shortages and retention issues read this Reddit thread. It sums up the feelings in the CAF rather well. Senior lleadership is completely missing the boat
Wait wait wait, so now if a CAF member isn't working overtime they aren't valuable enough for the current salary levels ? What's wrong with someone getting their tasks done in the 8hr work day ?

You are showing the exact reasons our pay is tied to rank and not hours. Its a dogs breakfast if you try to go otherwise. Lets also remember we are paid 24/7/365. Hence the reason I can call in the CFB Halifax, Blog Traffic section on a Sat at noon to move parts. How would you do over time for ships ? I was 141 days onboard FRE in 2020 with no time off. Imagine that OT bill.

Id rather "time in lieu" as the overtime the CAF would owe me would be taxed out the wazoo.
IIRC the expected "overtime" above and beyond a regular work schedule is priced into our pay at a rate of about 6%. Maybe a FinO can chime in and let me know if I am talking out my butt again.
 
OK, I've been retired for a looooong time, but, decades ago, I had a job that let me see, close up and in detail, how the "life cycle materiel management" system worked and didn't work. At the risk of grossly oversimplifying, the biggest enemy the materiel management system faced was interference by combat-branch admirals and generals who constantly wanted to 'reform' the materiel management system so that they could free up money for their own pet projects. They knew that e.g. keeping the bins full was an essential operational function but thy didn't care; a shiny new this or a bit more of that was always more important. 🤬
 
So, you don’t agree that someone working 60 hours a week is more valuable than someone working 30 or 40 hours??? If you get re-called on a Saturday afternoon to move parts, you get overtime. What’s the issue with this concept?

141 days at sea, but you had time off it was just on a ship. You are compensated for being on a ship through your SDA and for being deployed through a tax-free allowance. Somehow, the CCG is able to manage this...

No I don't. I have worked for people who had to work overtime because they cant manage their time. And then they wondered I wasn't working over time. Because I used my 8 hours productively. Why are people working that much over time ? Are they doing more than one job ? Are they over tasked and under staffed ? Since when did over time become the pillar of importance ?

I just completed my 6th deployment and 5th ship, where we were confined to ship for 141 days and lets throw in a helo crash for good measure too. Is not ok I do a day job for a bit ? Or should I continue to burn candle at both ends. Lets also not forget taking that ship out of refit and ramping it up for the Covid Cruise.

The CCG doesn't sail crews for 6 moths straight they are on a schedule. If SDA and Tax free are the compensation and that's good enough we shouldn't have a problem getting people to sail and deploy.
 
The issue of productivity is present in every sector (public or private). It is a leadership issue.
Due to the nature of how we operate especially in remote locations, I would argue work life balance, and quality of life also factor in as well. Happy troops tend to work harder, and have less issues in the work place.
 
The issue of productivity is present in every sector (public or private). It is a leadership issue.
So we can agree overtime is no measure of productivity and as such is not a measure of where ones pay level should be if we are going to tie pay to productivity vice rank.
 
Perhaps but it should not take a month to get a part to fix an aircraft. There are lessons that we could learn from an efficiency point of view. We don't exist to make profit but the supply chain should be effective and efficient, both characteristics that are required to run a profitable supply chain. The fact that consumable parts for Tutors (which are only based in Moose Jaw) are located in Montreal is a sign that our supply system is dysfunctional.
So why hasn't the Moose Jaw Log O submitted a UCR and requested all Tutor parts be re-located to Sqn stores at Moose Jaw?
 
So we can agree overtime is no measure of productivity and as such is not a measure of where ones pay level should be if we are going to tie pay to productivity vice rank.
No. Productivity should be fostered by leadership. And we need more teeth to kick deadweight out.

Overtime is a great way to compensate for work beyond normal expectation. Having a single pay structure, regardless of how much people work is flawed. People, like you, who are indeed productive, have no incentive, beyond a sense of duty, to do more.
 
No. Productivity should be fostered by leadership. And we need more teeth to kick deadweight out.

Overtime is a great way to compensate for work beyond normal expectation. Having a single pay structure, regardless of how much people work is flawed. People, like you, who are indeed productive, have no incentive, beyond a sense of duty, to do more.

What do you do when no one wants the overtime ?
 
So, just keep throwing money out the window under the auspice that “we pay good” is a acceptable proposition?

Of course, something like this will likely not be implemented anytime soon. But there are solutions to our inefficiencies in our pay structures.
 
The CAF would lose on OT, that is just a fact as you pay for every hour they aren't at home.

Other things that factor into CAF pay which isn't a factor for a civilian is the fact that Supply Techs can be shot at and have to shoot at the enemy. Being ordered to do things or go to jail. Can't refuse when work get dangerous or ridiculous. Can't tell your boss he is a POS without potentially doing jail time. Can't quit when you have had enough.
 
I visited the Supply Depot in Montreal last year. One thing that folks on the outside who say "just do what Amazan/Walmart do" don't realize is that those supply chains work in one direction. Our supply chain has to receive items back. Those industry supply chains work on money - ownership of the assets changes as the money changes hands. When you buy a hockey helmet for your kid its yours forever. Not so with our supply chains. The Queen buys helmets for troops and issues them, but will take them back and give them to someone else. Anyhoo I am out of my depth.
Bingo, we are very much a closed loop supply chain which means much of what we push out comes back in some way shape or form to some level of the supply chain for repair, refurb, demil or disposal. TBF most organizations have a return aspect of their supply chain but when your world revolves around parts it is vital. John Deere, Catapiller, Mack are all examples of companies that have strong returns aspects to their supply chain.

While we do hold lots of consumable stock most of our parts for platforms is repairable and returning those parts for repair or refurbishment is crucial to maintaining future stocks. Failure to execute this activity can have strategic effects especially for low density parts. One anedoctal example from early in my career is I took over a repair and disposal platoon that had had simply failed to do their job for several years. In cleaning up the mess we found we held 30 - 40% of all the transmissions for the HLVW, 90% of which were not properly on the system of record so there was no visibility of them in the supply chain. Just returning them to the system properly reinvigorated the fleet and likely saved money as they (EMT) no longer at to do a major purchase of additional assemblies which was crucial as the fleet was nearing the end of life anyway.
Is more people the answer or developing efficiencies in our processes a better way to tackle the issue?
I would argue that processes need to be refined before we go mewling for more PYs. There is something to be said on the PY front though as 3rd line lost roughly 1000 people between 1996 when they close CFSD Moncton and Toronto (900 PYs) and 2005 with the implementation of Material Acquisition Support Optimization Project (MASOP). Roughly 600 folks mostly civilian run 3rd line for the CAF, however many more work on the policy and equipment management side of the house controlled by DND proper.
I've said it before and I will say it again. Get rid of off the street LogOs. Stop having them become a "jack of all trades and master of none" and have strict discipline officers as in Supply Chain Management officers and solely commission from the ranks.

Put some teeth in our policies. Right now our polices are made of a wet paper lunch bag. Hold those accountable who abuse the CFSS.
Dude I respect ya but that is a bunk suggestion with no backing in anything substantive and I come from the ranks(although not MM Tech). Our 3rd line is mostly civilian and the back bone of 1st to 2nd line is SNCOs not officers and in my opinion they are just as much the problem as bad officers. As technical SMEs, I find them as a institution wholly lacking. Do not get me wrong there are a great many that are excellent, but many are dead weight and couldn't tell you the difference between and _S or _P MRP and or where a PReq/PO is stuck in the system. Part of it is breath and scale of the trade as they flit between being both lower level procurement and pure material management folks.

To touch on your policy aspect one thing many folks don't realize is that ADMMat owns policy and they belong to DND not the CAF. They are part of the whole supply chain but supply chain management is not our strength as that is a total understanding and cultivation of relationships across an entire supply chain.

Just so it is clear what I mean supply chain management is not the same as logistics.

Logistics = Logistics is the process of strategically managing the procurement, movement and storage of materials, parts and finished inventory (and the related information flows) through the organisation and its marketing channels in such a way that current and future profitability are maximised through the cost-effective fulfilment of orders

Supply Chain Management = A network of connected and interdependent organisations mutually and co-operatively working together to control, manage and improve the flow of materials and information from suppliers to end users

That said I am curious what policies you think are weak? I have my own thoughts but curious what you see as an issue.


Perhaps but it should not take a month to get a part to fix an aircraft. There are lessons that we could learn from an efficiency point of view. We don't exist to make profit but the supply chain should be effective and efficient, both characteristics that are required to run a profitable supply chain. The fact that consumable parts for Tutors (which are only based in Moose Jaw) are located in Montreal is a sign that our supply system is dysfunctional.

Agreed
So why hasn't the Moose Jaw Log O submitted a UCR and requested all Tutor parts be re-located to Sqn stores at Moose Jaw?
UCRs are to fix problems with individual NSNs not to fix systemic distribution and vehicle off-road (VOR or whatever a broken plane is called in RCAF parlance) problems.
Oh it has been asked at higher levels...

The CA has the same issue with much of their Engines and Major Assemblies (EMAS) for many fleets including almost all Leo II parts in Montreal despite 70% of the fleet being in Edmonton right beside a depot. It took some high level command involvement to break the Supply Manager and Life-Cycle Materiel Managers reluctance to not have all their preciouses in one place. If anything it makes sense if not Moose Jaw then at least pre-positioned regionally in Edmonton for Tudor parts.
We used to know better but that was before they trying to justify keeping Montreal open and the jobs in Quebec. Central storage works great if you have a dedicated delivery service attached to it but we got rid of the cosmos decades ago and along with them the scheduled flights between bases. Amazon works only because they have the delivery service to go with the warehousing.

We have dedicated delivery in the form of the National Freight Run, run by CMSG and executed by a number of partners within the CAF. Shipping by planes is expensive and they really can't carry the quantity that rail or trucks can at a fraction of the cost. Several posters have mused about more planes to move stock around and that argument might be valid for expeditionary ops but domestically an optimized NFR fits our needs fine and when it is needed commercial is there to back stop.


* edited for very shitty wording
 
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The CAF would lose on OT, that is just a fact as you pay for every hour they aren't at home.

Other things that factor into CAF pay which isn't a factor for a civilian is the fact that Supply Techs can be shot at and have to shoot at the enemy. Being ordered to do things or go to jail. Can't refuse when work get dangerous or ridiculous. Can't tell your boss he is a POS without potentially doing jail time. Can't quit when you have had enough.
Do all supply positions need to be filled by uniformed personnel? For a position that can't ever been deployed in case of war like a warehouse in Canada are you paying a premium filling the position with a service member with unlimited liability?
 
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