Author Topic: Brad/Chelsea Manning: Charged w/AFG file leak, Cdn angles, disposition (merged)  (Read 75392 times)

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Re: Deaths of four CDN soldiers in 2006 were fratricide: Wikileaks
« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2010, 09:10:55 »
Attached is a copy of the initial report on Wikileaks mentioned in media accounts.

Thanks bulletmagnet et. al. for sharing the reality - looking forward to seeing more of this side of the story as follow-up coverage.  It can be painful reliving such events, so an extra helping of thanks for going over it one more time for this.
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Offline tomahawk6

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Re: Deaths of four CDN soldiers in 2006 were fratricide: Wikileaks
« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2010, 09:30:05 »
The problem is WikiLeaks has already doctored the attack video and who is to say they havent doctored these files to support their agenda. Most of these files are similar to police files or raw intel which could be considered to be unsubstantiated. The ISI is widely considered to be behind the taliban but there isnt a smoking gun at least to my knowledge.

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Re: Deaths of four CDN soldiers in 2006 were fratricide: Wikileaks
« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2010, 09:46:02 »
.... Most of these files are similar to police files or raw intel which could be considered to be unsubstantiated ....
I'm happy to hear from others who may have some direct knowledge they can share, but from what I read of those who should know, these individual reports are also the "first draft" of the events they describe.  We all know how different the first version of a story can be compared to the version we see after cooler heads have prevailed and sorted out all the information.
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Re: Deaths of four CDN soldiers in 2006 were fratricide: Wikileaks
« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2010, 10:15:51 »
I just went to the cbc site to see what their loyal followers have to say. They seem to think, at least a lot of them, that the leaked documents have to be gospel. I wish - oh never mind - I'll keep my opinions of cbc followers, including, I'm embarrassed to say, members of my own family. to myself. I don't know why I ever go to their site. It just makes me mad. I'd suggest you ones who were there would go in and tell them, but they wouldn't believe you, anyway.

Hawk

Offline George Wallace

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Re: Deaths of four CDN soldiers in 2006 were fratricide: Wikileaks
« Reply #29 on: July 27, 2010, 10:24:13 »
Hawk

That is about it.  Many on those sites making comments are paranoid conspiracy nuts.  They wouldn’t believe the truth if it hit them in the face.

As for Wikileaks, the owner is a 5th Columnist in my eyes, leaking sensitive documents in time of war in a one-side exposé.  Are there any Taliban documents to give a truly balanced perspective?  Not anywhere to be seen.  We all know what kind of atrocities they have carried out in recent history.  What we are seeing is the MSM playing into the enemy’s hands, undermining all that we have achieved.  As we have several people on this site who where actually there, we know that at least some of these leaked documents are false.
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Re: Deaths of four CDN soldiers in 2006 were fratricide: Wikileaks
« Reply #30 on: July 27, 2010, 10:32:29 »
I just went to the cbc site to see what their loyal followers have to say. They seem to think, at least a lot of them, that the leaked documents have to be gospel. I wish - oh never mind - I'll keep my opinions of cbc followers, including, I'm embarrassed to say, members of my own family. to myself. I don't know why I ever go to their site. It just makes me mad. I'd suggest you ones who were there would go in and tell them, but they wouldn't believe you, anyway.

Hawk

Nothing raises my blood pressure more than reading the comments on CBC articles.

In the civilian world I work in records and information management, and this wikileaks business is a perfect example of people making decisions based on the content of a document without fully examining the context of the document. I work hard educating my staff to avoid such pitfalls, and it frustrates me to see other people fall into it.
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Re: Deaths of four CDN soldiers in 2006 were fratricide: Wikileaks
« Reply #31 on: July 27, 2010, 10:34:58 »
George, I'm not sure I would call this report false....wrong yes, but not "false" in a dishonest way (how it is being perceived by the tinfoil hat brigade is much different). Now, I'm no Int god, but the report in question seems to be making a giant leap in assuming the GBU was the cause of death. 
Seems like lazy intelligence gathering to me.

Wouldn't the coronor's report have more weight for cause of death than an Int Sum written by someone that wasn't even there?

Wook
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Re: Deaths of four CDN soldiers in 2006 were fratricide: Wikileaks
« Reply #32 on: July 27, 2010, 10:42:12 »
George, I'm not sure I would call this report false....wrong yes, but not "false" in a dishonest way (how it is being perceived by the tinfoil hat brigade is much different). Now, I'm no Int god, but the report in question seems to be making a giant leap in assuming the GBU was the cause of death ....
Exactly - correlation =/= causality:

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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Deaths of four CDN soldiers in 2006 were fratricide: Wikileaks
« Reply #33 on: July 27, 2010, 10:49:08 »
Wookilar

In a way you are right.  It in all likelihood is a report with third or fourth hand information, done up in a very hasty and brief fashion.  Something to the extent accounting for the facts that a NATO aircraft dropped a bomb (no mention that it was a dud) and that four Canadians were killed and several wounded.  In a sense those facts are correct, but in reality their breviety give a completely false picture of what happened.
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Re: Deaths of four CDN soldiers in 2006 were fratricide: Wikileaks
« Reply #34 on: July 27, 2010, 11:02:24 »
In a sense those facts are correct, but in reality their breviety give a completely false picture of what happened.
Not to mention someone classifying the document as a "friendly fire/blue-blue" report.
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Offline Old Sweat

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Re: Deaths of four CDN soldiers in 2006 were fratricide: Wikileaks
« Reply #35 on: July 27, 2010, 11:06:29 »
In my opinion the news story is based on a reading of the entry by someone who is not familiar with sitrepspeak. I have had considerable experience, albeit quite a long time ago, working in a formation headquarters in Germany as a watchkeeper on the brigade command net and an outstation on the division command net.

What we have is an entry that has combined and condensed quite a bit of information into a short synopsis. It is normal to end such entries with a report on casualties, without implying that they are the result of any one incident. (I have read literally hundreds of war diary entries, sitreps etc from both World Wars and the Boer War, and they all more or less follow the same format.)




Offline George Wallace

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Re: Deaths of four CDN soldiers in 2006 were fratricide: Wikileaks
« Reply #36 on: July 27, 2010, 11:07:40 »
Not to mention someone classifying the document as a "friendly fire/blue-blue" report.

That is the real kicker, and an assumption that someone made without 'all' the facts, no doubt due to the brevity of the report they were looking at. 
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Re: Deaths of four CDN soldiers in 2006 were fratricide: Wikileaks
« Reply #37 on: July 27, 2010, 11:08:15 »
The way the document is written could make someone infer, especially if they had an agenda, that the casualties were the result of the bomb.   We kow, not just from first hand accounts, but in general that contact reps read like this - Troops taking lots of fire from area X, Air support called in, building with bad guys partially demolished, net result of contact was X number CDN KIA and WIA.  I don't see anything that reads "Bomb dropped on building, oops, blowed up good guys".  Like I mentioned in the other thread about this and was hinted to earlier here, this does have a bit of a ring of info/disinfo ops...a hell of a way for the bad guys or their puppet masters to breed insecurity on the home front.  If you can't kill them on the battlefield, kill their public will to go on from the other end.  And if it wasn't from the bad guys, well either way, it's a big coup for them anyway.

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Re: Deaths of four CDN soldiers in 2006 were fratricide: Wikileaks
« Reply #38 on: July 27, 2010, 11:29:19 »
Fantastic analysis, George, your usual standard. The thread is richer for your contribution.

"Frank was standing on one side of Sergeant Major Barnes and Will Cushley was standing behind him, behind what -- I don't know what the military calls it but -- what we'd call a front-end motor, and the Taliban insurgent or whatever you want to call them popped up out of a building and fired a 50-cal rifle at it and the schrapnel killed both Frank and Will Cushley.

Read more: http://www.nationalpost.com/news/world/Canadian+deaths+have+been+friendly+fire+WikiLeaks+file/3325426/story.html#ixzz0usrP7XlD

If you are unfamiliar with how 'bombs' work, PM me, I'll try to explain.

Could you CC me that info?  I've never seen an explosion, have no knowledge of explosives or volatile substances, and could really benefit from your clearly superior knowledge in that regard.
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Re: Deaths of four CDN soldiers in 2006 were fratricide: Wikileaks
« Reply #39 on: July 27, 2010, 11:32:56 »
You have to wonder what got inside the head of the young SPC that is suspected of being the source. Some interesting comments over on The Beast about whether he had help or not.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-07-25/wikileaks-afghan-files-did-accused-leaker-bradley-manning-act-alone/
(not that the beast is the epitome of journalistic integrity or anything, but certainly no worse than the CBC  ;D)

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Re: Deaths of four CDN soldiers in 2006 were fratricide: Wikileaks
« Reply #40 on: July 27, 2010, 11:34:03 »
That is the real kicker, and an assumption that someone made without 'all' the facts, no doubt due to the brevity of the report they were looking at.

Exactly, George.

I've looked at several reports of activity I am personally familiar with, and they're almost all just as succinct. They're equally ambiguous if you don't have special knowledge of the event. Many of the reports are "first comment" and these are the ones the media seem to be focusing on, not the more detailed and complete reports.
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Re: Deaths of four CDN soldiers in 2006 were fratricide: Wikileaks
« Reply #41 on: July 27, 2010, 11:36:53 »
I wonder how long Julian Assange is going to be allowed to remain a free man?  What he has gone and done now, is cross a very fine line.  I am sure his Wikileaks will soon be closed down, and his finding himself jailed.
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Re: Deaths of four CDN soldiers in 2006 were fratricide: Wikileaks
« Reply #42 on: July 27, 2010, 11:53:18 »
I do not see that happening. Different organizations have tried since he started up. The screaming of "censorship" would go arounf the planet pretty quick.

Besides, there will always be some ***-clown with an ISP that will host another ***-clown.

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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Deaths of four CDN soldiers in 2006 were fratricide: Wikileaks
« Reply #43 on: July 27, 2010, 11:57:37 »
I'm thinking "the National Security Act" or whatever the US and UK have to protect State Secrets.  He has crossed the line in releasing secret documents that can "embarrass" or "do harm" to the governments of the US and UK.  These maters are not usually taken lightly.  I don’t think they would go so far as to try him for treason, but they may try to charge him with something close to it.
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Re: Deaths of four CDN soldiers in 2006 were fratricide: Wikileaks
« Reply #44 on: July 27, 2010, 12:01:49 »
I'm thinking "the National Security Act" or whatever the US and UK have to protect State Secrets.  He has crossed the line in releasing secret documents that can "embarrass" or "do harm" to the governments of the US and UK.  These maters are not usually taken lightly.  I don’t think they would go so far as to try him for treason, but they may try to charge him with something close to it.
Legal-beagle question:  if the servers where the info is contained aren't in the US or UK, can this fly? 

Then again, maybe he can visit the areas where anyone who's listed on these reports talking to ISAF has been killed to share his philosophy  >:D
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Re: Deaths of four CDN soldiers in 2006 were fratricide: Wikileaks
« Reply #45 on: July 27, 2010, 12:05:16 »
I have hard time believing that, actually.  I doubt he'll wind up in any sort of detention.  As for the site, it'll likely not go anywhere, either.  And even if it did, it has mirrors everywhere, and any of the info put out on it has been copied and stored all over the place - if it disappeared, a replacement would likely appear very quickly.

I wonder how long Julian Assange is going to be allowed to remain a free man?  What he has gone and done now, is cross a very fine line.  I am sure his Wikileaks will soon be closed down, and his finding himself jailed.
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Deaths of four CDN soldiers in 2006 were fratricide: Wikileaks
« Reply #46 on: July 27, 2010, 12:10:44 »
Legal-beagle question:  if the servers where the info is contained aren't in the US or UK, can this fly? 

He did make a public appearance to announce these 'facts':
Quote
WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange speaks during a press conference in London, 26 Jul 2010. Assange said he believes there is evidence of war crimes in the thousands of pages of leaked U.S. military documents.

LINK
Quote
WikiLeaks is a website that posts formerly secret documents online in what its members say is the pursuit of transparency and accountability.  Its release of more than 75,000 U.S. Army and Marine Corps documents chronicling six years of events in Afghanistan has angered officials in Washington, Britain and Pakistan

The WikiLeaks website says the organization began as a dialogue between activists who wanted to alleviate suffering.  It says the organization champions "principled leaking." 

Since 2007 WikiLeaks has posted thousands of documents on the internet.  Founder Julian Assange sees himself as an information activist whose main goal is to get information into the public domain.  He says he has a small, overworked staff, about 800 part time workers and thousands of supporters. 

"I suppose our greatest fear is we will be too successful too fast, and we will not be able to do justice to the material we are getting in fast enough," said Assange.  "That is our greatest problem at the moment."

WikiLeaks is non-profit and Assange says during the past few months there has been tremendous financial support.

"We have raised a million dollars from the general public.  As a result we are enabled to have a sort of fierce independence that larger organizations find more difficult.  That said, of course, we are also immediately accountable to the public because that is where our money comes from, directly from the public, not from advertisers or foundations," said Assange.

Simon Schneider, who runs a competition to find new internet technology to improve global security, says WikiLeaks main strength is protecting its sources.

"The fact that it is so controversial and the fact that so many people talk about it tells me that WikiLeaks touches on a very, very important point," said Schneider.  "And I think that this discussion between what should be private and what should be public touches a lot of peoples nerves, and I think it is important that we talk about it."

But former intelligence analyst Bob Ayers is not convinced WikiLeaks is a force for good.

"The fact that we have a bunch of liberal amateurs trying to do intelligence assessments of material does not give me a strong feeling of confidence," said Ayers.

Ayers cites WikiLeaks most recent revelations, the release of more than 75,000 U.S. military documents relating to Afghanistan.

"The information that was released is not a threat to the United States per se," said Ayers.  "It has the potential to be a threat to combatants that are fighting in the area, it has the potential to destabilize the trilateral relationships between Afghanistan, Pakistan and the U.S.  And it has the potential to place the intelligence community at some level of risk if their sources are being compromised publicly."

WikiLeaks founder Assange says his organization has a harm-minimization process to identify, redact or withhold anything that might hurt a source or anyone involved in the documents.  Assange says for that reason, they did not release more than 15,000 Afghanistan-related documents, and he says because what they did make public was seven months old, he believed it contained no information that could harm NATO troops. 

Ayers disagrees.  "The fact it is seven months old is immaterial.  It is irrelevant.  They are not going to change their patrolling patterns in seven months, they are still going to patrol the same way.  So now what you have done is you have informed the enemy of information that can assist them in planning how to attack NATO forces in Afghanistan when they are on patrol," said Ayers.

Ayers believes the American government will have to do something about WikiLeaks.  Under U.S. law it is illegal to disclose classified information. 

"There is a real dilemma here as to how to deal with a site like WikiLeaks," said Ayers.  "Are they acting in the public good?  Are they acting sensationally? Are they endangering the public good?  Are they endangering lives by their actions?  And those are things that I think we will still see addressed and sorted out over the next six months or so."

To thwart censorship, WikiLeaks released the leaked documents in three jurisdictions, the United States, Germany and Great Britain.
========================================================================

Who is really providing the "financial support"?
« Last Edit: July 27, 2010, 12:17:32 by George Wallace »
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Re: Deaths of four CDN soldiers in 2006 were fratricide: Wikileaks
« Reply #47 on: July 27, 2010, 15:40:12 »
This, via Canadian Press, from former CDS Rick Hillier:
Quote
.... Hillier says there were more than 1,000 Canadian soldiers involved in Operation Medusa, and hundreds of witnesses who saw precisely what happened, and the American account is simply incorrect.

He says it's a cardinal rule among soldiers in the field to take every piece of information with a grain of salt, because it's only in the fullness of time that the true picture emerges.

A source in Washington says the report could be confusing their deaths with a genuine friendly-fire death the following day: Pte. Mark Graham died when Canadian troops in the area were strafed by NATO planes.

"Somebody wrote a document, obviously, and was wrong in what they wrote," said Hillier, who was conducting interviews Tuesday for The Motorcycle Ride for Dad, a cross-Canada effort to raise money for prostate cancer awareness.

"We always tried to take with a grain of salt everything we heard, because nothing was ever as good or as bad as you would first hear. We never trusted those first reports, and don't trust them now."

"We had hundreds of witnesses to all the events that occurred over the days and several weeks there, and sadly, we know from those hundreds of folks who were involved directly, that the lives of those four soldiers were lost because of enemy action, not because of friendly fire."

Hillier said the documents, which were posted Sunday on the fledgling whistle-blower site Wikileaks, pose a serious problem because they're already forcing the families of Canadian soldiers killed in battle to relive the tragedy ....
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Offline Brutus

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Re: Deaths of four CDN soldiers in 2006 were fratricide: Wikileaks
« Reply #48 on: July 27, 2010, 16:09:11 »
There's quite a bunfight going on on cbc.ca under the article 'Military Rejects Wiki leaks' and to a lesser extent, 'Hillier Slams Wiki report'.

I am curious, and I know everyone likes their PerSec, but is anyone on this forum also one of the sane fellows saying their was no cover-up?

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Re: Deaths of four CDN soldiers in 2006 were fratricide: Wikileaks
« Reply #49 on: July 27, 2010, 16:31:09 »
I'm no doctor, but I'm fairly certain if I read much more of CBC in the next few days I'm going to burst a blood vessel and stroke out.