Author Topic: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?  (Read 201740 times)

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Offline the 48th regulator

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?
« Reply #575 on: November 01, 2016, 16:16:47 »
I like what this guy is doing: http://poppypins.com/Home_Page.php

I ordered some of these pins myself and they work great.  The sad part is that the Legion has known about the problem with the straight pin for years, yet has steadfastly refused to do anything about it.  In some cases, there have even been admissions that they like people to lose their poppies because they believe it encourages them to donate again.

The Legion has apparently tried to censure the guy doing this, which is ironic because he's a Legion member!


A Brilliant idea,andI have purchased some too.

I also have orderd some of these velcro patches;

http://urbantactical.com/urban-tactical-velcro-poppy-patch.html

I know that I’m not perfect and that I don’t claim to be, so before you point your fingers make sure your hands are clean.

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?
« Reply #576 on: November 01, 2016, 16:53:53 »
I actually saw those patches in the store when I was in a couple weeks ago...should have thought to grab a couple.

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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?
« Reply #577 on: November 01, 2016, 17:10:32 »
www.urbantactical set off my Antimalware filter.
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Stop! This website is not safe
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Offline ModlrMike

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?
« Reply #578 on: November 01, 2016, 18:32:59 »
I like what this guy is doing: http://poppypins.com/Home_Page.php

I ordered some of these pins myself and they work great.  The sad part is that the Legion has known about the problem with the straight pin for years, yet has steadfastly refused to do anything about it.  In some cases, there have even been admissions that they like people to lose their poppies because they believe it encourages them to donate again.

The Legion has apparently tried to censure the guy doing this, which is ironic because he's a Legion member!

Easier yet, glue the black felt center to a thumb tack and use a standard clasp to secure it to your clothing. I've been doing this for years on my dress uniform, because one invariably loses poppy between the house and the parade.

And yes, I still donate to the poppy fund every year.
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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?
« Reply #579 on: November 01, 2016, 19:43:13 »
I bought these Poppy pins last year, using them this year and very satisfied.

Offline the 48th regulator

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?
« Reply #580 on: November 01, 2016, 21:34:59 »
www.urbantactical set off my Antimalware filter.

And....

Didn't hurt mine.

Then again, I don't have an adult Filter.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2016, 21:38:18 by John Tescione »
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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?
« Reply #581 on: November 01, 2016, 21:57:50 »
Another option:  run the pin through the poppy itself to help keep it on - see attached.
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Offline MCG

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?
« Reply #582 on: November 02, 2016, 00:49:28 »
I like what this guy is doing: http://poppypins.com/Home_Page.php
I have heard some in the military lump those in with maple leaf or Canadian flag pins as a prohibited way of attaching the poppy to a Canadian uniform.
I know of units that have been told they are not allowed to use that pin to keep poppies from getting lost.

Offline jollyjacktar

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?
« Reply #583 on: November 02, 2016, 11:04:36 »
One of the retired Chiefs here spotted mine this morning.  Nothing was said by those in uniform.  Hell, even the Coxswain didn't notice or remark on it when I was talking to him on Monday.

Offline Jewel144

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?
« Reply #584 on: November 02, 2016, 11:19:04 »
We picked up these for our poppies this year.

Offline Brihard

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?
« Reply #585 on: November 02, 2016, 12:02:01 »
Hampton, NB Legion seems to have created a social media storm.  https://www.facebook.com/jamie.keating.92

Mr Keating attempted to be part of service to honour 9 fallen friends from Afghanistan and was told the laying ceremony was for dignities only.  His rant video is making the rounds of CFB Gagetown FB users last night and this morning.

Some follow up on this. Jamie Keating put up a new video today. Among other things, looks liek the president of that branch has been forced or is being forced to step down by higher, and there has been tremendous outreach to him by senior levels of the Legion. He seems pretty satisfied at the otherwhelmingly positive response to one idiot's stupid actions. Good to see.
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Offline Towards_the_gap

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?
« Reply #586 on: November 02, 2016, 13:24:55 »
I have heard some in the military lump those in with maple leaf or Canadian flag pins as a prohibited way of attaching the poppy to a Canadian uniform.
I know of units that have been told they are not allowed to use that pin to keep poppies from getting lost.

Heyzeus H Chrisco..........there is being anal and then there is this. Maybe I was a terrible SNCO but to me, a prohibition was for something that would risk lives...and securing your poppy in the run up to remembrance day didn't exactly fit that category. As long as troops had one I was cool with it.

Offline the 48th regulator

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?
« Reply #587 on: November 03, 2016, 15:07:10 »
And the dumb dumb factor continues.

This article folks, exemplifies the stupidity that runs rampant within the Legion. This is why Veterans do not join.  Assinine statements about something practical. I have purchased them in the past, and ordred ten more for my family and friends!

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/remembrance-day-poppy-pin-that-won-t-fall-off-1.3311799

Remembrance Day poppy pin that won't fall off too commercial: legion HQ

The head office of the Royal Canadian Legion says the sale of a little black pin designed to keep you from losing yet another poppy is commercializing Remembrance Day.

"People are being asked to pay $3 for a centre pin which is not really part of the spirit of the campaign. It's a commercial venture," said Bill Maxwell, senior program officer with the Royal Canadian Legion Dominion Command in Ottawa.

The pin is a near replica of the black felt centre of the legion's traditional poppy — minus the sharp, straight pin. Instead, the poppy centre substitute is a lapel pin with a flat back that doesn't poke and stays put.

The pins are manufactured and sold privately online for $3 to $5 apiece, but at least four Calgary branches are also selling them alongside their Remembrance Day poppy campaigns.
Poppy pin Joan Lepidus

Joan Lepidus, who is on the executive of the No. 1 Legion in Calgary, has replaced her straight pin for a lapel pin poppy centre. (Danielle Nerman/CBC)

"There's a substantial discount that I give to the legions so that they can, you know, make some profit. And what they do with that — that's their business. They can put it into their general funds or they can put it into the poppy fund," said Doug Michetti, the Calgary man behind the poppy pin centres.

Michetti, a longtime legion member and volunteer, says branches sell his pins to the public for $3 each. He says he charges them "less than half that" for each pin and it costs him a dollar to make a pin. He keeps any remaining profit, but declined to provide more details.

"The legions do not sell them with the poppy. You contribute to the poppy fund and you take a poppy and if you want a pin, you buy that separately."

Designed for safety

Michetti came up with the idea for his poppy pin centres four years ago while volunteering for local branch No. 284 at the Calgary airport.

Two young girls from the U.S. approached him, curious about the red plastic flower brooches on his table. After a brief lesson in Canadian history, Michetti gave each of them a poppy pin.
Poppy pin on jacket

Along with volunteering for the Poppy Campaign, Lepidus also sells poppy pin centres for $3 a piece for the No. 1 Legion in Calgary. (Danielle Nerman/CBC)

"Then, their mother came along and she looked at the pin and the poppy and said, 'I'm sorry, but girls, you're going to have to give those back.' She was afraid of the pin."

That prompted Michetti to devise a safer backing. Excited by his eureka moment, he immediately rang up head office to inquire about joining forces.

Legion brass told Michetti it was good idea, but they were not interested.

"So I thought, well, it leaves me to do it. So I did it."

Poppy pin centres sell like gangbusters

On Monday, two Royal Canadian Legion branches in Calgary — No. 154 (Ogden) and No. 264 (Kensington) — had sold out of Michetti's pins.

"I've had no luck so far, " said Lise Marier, who has been searching the city for a dozen poppy pin centres for her family and friends.

In downtown Calgary, a volunteer with the No.1 branch sold 200 in three hours after the word got out on Facebook.

Social media has really ramped up the sale of the poppy centre pins.

"I ran out," said Joan Lepidus, who runs a Poppy Campaign table inside the Harry Hayes Service Canada building. "I really think they're great and everybody that comes to buy them — they come back two or three times."

Michetti says he has sold about 40,000 of his pins to legions and individuals across Canada and the U.S. since he launched his website.

Pins 'deface' poppy symbol

"You know it is defacing our poppy, and our policy is such that the poppy should not be defaced," said Maxwell, who also speaks for the Royal Canadian Legion's poppy and remembrance committee in Ottawa.

His stance is in line with what's written on page 42 of the Legion's Poppy Manual — that the poppy is a 'sacred symbol of remembrance' and no other pin (except the pointy one that it comes with) should be used to attach it to your clothing.

    8 ways to pin your Remembrance Day poppy

Maxwell said legionnaires should wear their poppies in the traditional fashion, but recognizes that the Royal Canadian Legion can't control the will of the Canadian public.

"It's a personal choice. And it's better to wear a poppy than no poppy at all," he said.

Dominion Command has directed branches across Canada not to sell the poppy pin centre substitutes.

Maxwell adds that if people are worried about poking themselves with the poppy pin, many legion branches supply "poppy savers," or plastic ends, to put on the pointy end of the pin.




I know that I’m not perfect and that I don’t claim to be, so before you point your fingers make sure your hands are clean.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?
« Reply #588 on: November 03, 2016, 18:46:52 »
I bought a few poppy pins off someone online. I found it interesting that he said he got a bunch of  them from an MFRC  after they were asked by the Legion to stop selling the pins  ::)



On a different note about the legion I can post the picture if anyone cares but I came across a post about how the Legion charges a $100 fee per formal complaint. It sounds like IF the complaint is found to be legitimate then the member is reimbursed the money?  Still, pretty clever way to curb pesky complaints.

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?
« Reply #589 on: November 03, 2016, 22:53:27 »

On a different note about the legion I can post the picture if anyone cares but I came across a post about how the Legion charges a $100 fee per formal complaint. It sounds like IF the complaint is found to be legitimate then the member is reimbursed the money?  Still, pretty clever way to curb pesky complaints.

If the complaint is anything BUT total bullshit it gets refunded. Complaint doesn't need to ultimately be supported, just not be blatantly frivolous. Exactly as you say- a filter for vexatious complaints.

And yeah, I bought a few pins off him too.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?
« Reply #590 on: November 03, 2016, 22:58:10 »
If the complaint is anything BUT total bullshit it gets refunded. Complaint doesn't need to ultimately be supported, just not be blatantly frivolous. Exactly as you say- a filter for vexatious complaints.
I guess it can work both ways. Cut down on what must be a number of BS complaints but it can also probably dissuade someone from making a legitimate complaint both if they feel they won't be treated fair OR if they don't have the money. I read somewhere the average Canadian household is $200 away from financial hardship (can't think of the right term). Also I assume a lot of Legion members are possibly on fixed incomes so a $100 gamble could be a big deal.

Quote
And yeah, I bought a few pins off him too.
I probably owe you a beer in a round about way for that  ;D

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?
« Reply #591 on: November 03, 2016, 23:00:17 »
I guess it can work both ways. Cut down on what must be a number of BS complaints but it can also probably dissuade someone from making a legitimate complaint both if they feel they won't be treated fair OR if they don't have the money. I read somewhere the average Canadian household is $200 away from financial hardship (can't think of the right term). Also I assume a lot of Legion members are possibly on fixed incomes so a $100 gamble could be a big deal.

Yes. It is still a problematic barrier to transparency and accountability and I know a few people are looking at potential ways to address this matter through a formal resolution. There needs to be a way to filter frivolous or vexatious complaints, but at the same time, legitimate grievances need a mechanism for airing.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?
« Reply #592 on: November 04, 2016, 05:35:35 »
On a different, non-poppy related note.....Perhaps they're getting the hint? Share with the usual caveats:
http://www.legion.ca/article/get-the-grump-out-of-the-legion/

Quote
Get the Grump Out of the Legion!
Right across the organization, Branches and Commands receive complaints from the public and even our members about their experiences walking into a Branch. At some Branches, people are met with a certain ‘grumpiness’ that is not acceptable. It’s time to address this situation, and quite frankly it must be addressed now and with urgency. It’s time to get the grump out of the Legion!

B.C/Yukon Command sent out the following (adapted) message to their Branches, and Dominion Command whole-heartedly agrees with this message. It’s a message that must be shared across the organization, and we hope every Branch shares this message with their members.


Every effort is being made at the Dominion, Provincial, Zone and Branch levels to recruit and retain Legion members. The media loves sounding the death knell for our organization, and we must fight it by working even harder at our membership numbers. We know many Branches have focused on this, ensuring their Branches stay welcoming, inclusive and relevant… and these Branches see growth because of this.

What we continue to struggle with is the reception people get at some of our Branches. We hear of experiences from across Canada that makes us cringe…

-An Ordinary member (in his forties) went for dinner at a Branch in a town where he was working temporarily. Upon entering, the entire place turned and stared at him, and not one person greeted him. He felt too awkward to stay, so he left.

-Another person attempted to join a Branch, and asked if he could be an Ordinary member as a Paramedic. He got a flat “No” and no one took the time to explain or offer information on any other category of membership. He left.

-A group of people belonging to a local softball club went to their Legion Branch after a game. Rather than taking what could have been a great opportunity for the Branch to welcome the team, tell them about the Legion and let them know about membership, a group of ‘regulars’ (members that occupy the same table each night) shouted at the team to remove their baseball caps the moment they walked in the door. The team turned around and left.

This kind of behaviour is creating a perception across the organization that is killing our efforts in welcoming potential new members. We must address this final and critical step of recruitment. For this organization to attract new members we must all, even the folks at “that table” in your Branch, be less grumpy. In fact, why are we not more like hosts?

Put bluntly, the Legion cannot survive on its current membership alone; to continue our mission of Remembrance, we must embrace those that walk through our doors, regardless of background, age, or profession. It’s time to get the grump out of the Legion!

Let’s start to get the word out about being a good host. Here are 6 ideas to assist your Branch in ways to welcome new or visiting people:

1.  Agree that if there is any member of the Branch Executive in the Branch, that it is set up that that they watch for people who look out of place and uncomfortable, and greet them.

2. Put up a small dry erase board at the entrance that says: New to our Branch? We want to welcome you! The greeter of the day is: (name of volunteer) . Please ask for me.

3. Talk to the bartenders and servers to approach and welcome people when times are quiet. We hear stories of people being completely ignored by bar staff in some Branches. Not ok. Sometimes they are the first people that a new person would approach and they should be personable.

4. Understand that most people don’t really know how things work in our Branches or what activities are available in our locations. If we welcome our guests a bit better and make them feel comfortable with the Branch events, then it won’t be so intimidating to come in the next time – perhaps with another guest.

5. Having trouble getting a new member to come for their initiation ceremony? It should be done at a general meeting, but it doesn’t have to be. Invite them to an event, or even do it with a couple of Executives hosting their visit. Have an Executive member accompanying the new member at the meeting at which they are to be initiated and explain the initiation process in advance of the event – this could make a new WelcomeHandshakemember more comfortable; anything that forms the relationship helps.

6. Why not have some pin-on buttons made and ask some of your outgoing and pleasant members to wear a “host of the day” pin and have them welcome people? These are easy things that friendly people do well. Above all, deal firmly with the grouches and those members who “welcome” guests by yelling “remove your hat” – they are hurting your Branch.

We know that some Branches are doing an extraordinary job of being friendly and welcoming from the minute a guest opens the front door. So if you are doing it right and having success, or have good ideas to welcome your visitors, please share them with Dominion Command so we can start conversations across the organization.

Let’s show Canada just how friendly the Legion can be!


Some of their initiatives are a little... corny. However, it is nice to see that at least Dominion Command is addressing the hostility that poisons the well.
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Offline donaldk

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?
« Reply #593 on: November 04, 2016, 05:49:24 »
We picked up these for our poppies this year.

Thanks, Saw the listing on Ebay (which has no address) and was hoping there was a walk-in location as I am on TD to ESQ next week.  Not far from the Wardroom.

Offline Pusser

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?
« Reply #594 on: November 04, 2016, 11:55:13 »

Pins 'deface' poppy symbol

"You know it is defacing our poppy, and our policy is such that the poppy should not be defaced," said Maxwell, who also speaks for the Royal Canadian Legion's poppy and remembrance committee in Ottawa.

His stance is in line with what's written on page 42 of the Legion's Poppy Manual — that the poppy is a 'sacred symbol of remembrance' and no other pin (except the pointy one that it comes with) should be used to attach it to your clothing.

   
Maxwell said legionnaires should wear their poppies in the traditional fashion, but recognizes that the Royal Canadian Legion can't control the will of the Canadian public.

"It's a personal choice. And it's better to wear a poppy than no poppy at all," he said.

Dominion Command has directed branches across Canada not to sell the poppy pin centre substitutes.

Maxwell adds that if people are worried about poking themselves with the poppy pin, many legion branches supply "poppy savers," or plastic ends, to put on the pointy end of the pin.[/color]

Yes, the poppy is a sacred symbol of remembrance.  A symbol can be represented in many ways.  The piece of plastic with a straight pin itself is not sacred.  Furthermore, how is a straight pin that folks have been complaining about for years any more "sacred" than another pin that looks the same, functions better and is safer?  How do the Legion's "poppy savers" preserve "sacredness" any more than these poppy pin centres?

The Legion has to pull its collective head out of its *** and realize that someone has come up with a better idea.  instead of fighting it, perhaps they should embrace it.
Sure, apes read Nietzsche.  They just don't understand it.

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?
« Reply #595 on: November 04, 2016, 12:24:35 »
Some of their initiatives are a little... corny.
That makes me feel like an old fart - many of the "if you see someone who's looking like their new or unfamiliar with the place, go up to them and chat 'em up" tips I learned in the junior ranks and Sgt/WO messes when I was a member.

Small steps, but certainly in the right direction.
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The words I share here are my own, not those of anyone else or anybody I may be affiliated with.

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?
« Reply #596 on: December 16, 2016, 06:15:47 »
As with any media story, there's likely more to it than we see here, but here's another example of the periphery being underwhelmed with the centre ...
Quote
A year-and-a-half long dispute over roughly $300 has led to a rural Nova Scotia legion being stripped of its certification following a bitter clash with provincial leadership in Halifax.

Members of Clare Branch #52 in Saulnierville dug in their heels and didn't comply with a bylaw requiring the chapter to send a small portion of money raised through its annual poppy campaign to the Nova Scotia/Nunavut Command of the Royal Canadian Legion.

After Clare didn't pay for the second time, the Royal Canadian Legion withdrew the branch's charter in November. But that doesn't seem to bother the branch's former president.

"They wanted it, they got it, they can keep it," said Russell Comeau, who also served as Clare's local service officer.

He said members didn't feel the command supported or provided any services for their area.

"Nothing, nothing whatsoever. They'd just say send us money," he said ...
“Most great military blunders stem from the good intentions of some high-ranking buffoon ...” – George MacDonald Fraser, "The Sheik and the Dustbin"

The words I share here are my own, not those of anyone else or anybody I may be affiliated with.

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