Author Topic: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?  (Read 205961 times)

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Online mariomike

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL withers?
« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2010, 11:02:28 »
I've always enjoyed statistics ( I know what Benjamin Disraeli had to say about them ).
RCL "Memberhip statistical reports":
http://legion.ca/Membership/reports_e.cfm

From Wikipedia:
"Historically the Legion Hall was the social centre of many Canadian towns. This was especially the case in the provinces with severe restrictions on the sale of alcohol, rules from which the legions were generally exempt."

The area I live in was dry until 2000, so I can relate to that. Now, there's a bar on every other corner.

"The law governing liability for the intoxicated has changed dramatically":
http://www.cap-insurance.com/docs_public/Canadian%20Alcohol%20Liability%20Study.pdf

With the introduction of "smoke free" by-laws in bars, there was discussion that the RCL might be exempted from the new rule.
That did not happen, so the RCL did not get the business of smokers when bars went no smoking.
"I come here for the socializing. My friends don't show up any more because of the non-smoking. So I come in less and less.":
http://carleton.ca/Capital_News/02112001/feature.shtml
The story ( 2001 ) reports that 62.3% of RCL were over the age of 55.
"Dismayed that Legion Halls are included among the places where smoking will be banned effective May 31, 2006, veterans are among the most vocal critics of the new law.":
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1118256271906_113665471/?hub=CTVNewsAt11

Another sad story:
"Branch president Yvonne Lortie said costs associated with allowing alcohol on the premises make up a large chunk of the legion’s monthly expenses.
“We might get rid of the liquor licence,” she said.":
http://www.saultstar.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1719043





 

« Last Edit: April 21, 2010, 20:34:38 by mariomike »
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Offline Rifleman62

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL withers?
« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2010, 11:02:43 »
I was an Ordinary member of the RCL in Wpg. My Branch was clean, fairly modern, friendly, but sans past serving members of the military. Agree with OWDU, and some of the others critical of the RCL.

I personally think we have the RCL, with it's never served executive at various levels, to thank for the New Veterans Charter. And of course, VAC. With it's client base of WWI Vets dead, the WWII and Korea Vets in their 80's to 90's, a annual operating budget of at least $1 Billion, thousands of employees, trips overseas in commemoration (more VAC pers than Vets), what else could VAC do but make everyone a Vet except Cadets. You really don't think it was done to help us do you. In keeping with it's policy VAC just wanted to piss off and frustrate new generations of ex Cdn military.

Quote
But some twit who's only tenuous connection the military is he's the son of someone who defended Borden from potential Japanese Invasion in 1944....
They were called Zombies during the war.

jolleyjacktar: The RCL was in an old Safeway building wasn't it???
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Offline Rifleman62

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL withers?
« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2010, 11:09:34 »
RCL by War Service
WW1                 1

WW2        26,430

Korea         2,548

Gulf            8,473

Total         37,452

Does Canada have that many Gulf War Vets?
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Offline Petamocto

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL withers?
« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2010, 11:29:23 »
While this is mere speculation, is it possible that  those numbers the Legion are using got the Gulf as a catch-all for all operations conducted in the 1990s?

Edit - As Journayman points out below, the kinds of Ops I'm thinking of are the Bosnia/Somolia/Croatia-types of missions, since they are not showing up on the chart the gentleman posted.

I am not saying that is what the Legion has done, but it does seem odd that if ~4,000 CF soldiers were involved in the Gulf that the number for Legion members from the Gulf is over double that (but they don't show other theatres in the same timeframe).
« Last Edit: April 21, 2010, 14:10:18 by Petamocto »
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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL withers?
« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2010, 11:34:44 »
Gulf            8,473
Does Canada have that many Gulf War Vets?

Looks like about double the number of medals issued.:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_and_Kuwait_Medal
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Offline Journeyman

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL withers?
« Reply #30 on: April 21, 2010, 11:37:39 »
The only thing I can think of that justifies those numbers are using the "Gulf" as a catch-all for all operations conducted in the 1990s.
...like Rwanda, Bosnia, Kosovo   ::)

Over 4000 CF personnel, including a Naval Task Group (Terra Nova, Athabascan, Protecteur), elements of two CF-18 squadrons and a field hospital, participated in the Gulf War.


You do realize that there's no obligation to post when you haven't a clue what you're talking about

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL withers?
« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2010, 11:48:02 »
I suspect the report is generated automatically - and anyone reporting that they served in 1990-91 is identified as a Gulf War vet.

Though the 08 report only states 1474 Gulf War vets.  And the 07 stated 9376.

All this to say:  It does not look like the Legion knows how to count (or at least not in a consistent manner).


There`s also been a precipitous decline in membership:  from a high of 600K in the mid 80s (with over half being former serving) to today, with under 350K, under half of whom have former service (and of those 112K, about 42K are "unknown"- likely non-RCMP police). If we omit the"unknown", we`ve got about 20% of Legion members as former CF.


And, of course, you have to love an organization which mis-spells "Military"on their website - look at the left-hand menu, select "About the Legion", then look at the penultimate entry "Miltary Heritage".


This posting made in accordance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 2(b):
Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/1.html

Offline Petamocto

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL withers?
« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2010, 12:07:02 »
You do realize that there's no obligation to post when you haven't a clue what you're talking about

You just said yourself that ~4,000 Canadians served in the Gulf.

The gentleman above posted that there are ~8,500 members from that theatre.

Since nowhere near 100% (let alone 200%+) people who go to a theatre join the Legion, how would you like to suggest they came to the number of ~8,500 if they are not including other operations?

The ops you mentioned are exactly the kind that I am talking about, because what the gentleman posted didn't make mention of other theatres in that time frame.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2010, 12:12:26 by Petamocto »
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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL withers?
« Reply #33 on: April 21, 2010, 12:17:46 »
I have to say, I've had nothing but good experiences with our provincial legions... admitedly, they're primarily composed of associate members, but still nothing but good experiences... major support of the cadet movement, organizing local parades for all major memorial events, firm support of vets and serving troops....

Remember troops, the minimum acceptable standard is still an acceptable standard.

Offline Journeyman

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL withers?
« Reply #34 on: April 21, 2010, 12:29:46 »
....how would you like to suggest they came to the number of ~8,500?
I wouldn't.

You see....
- I don't know the answer so I won't waste bandwidth or readers' time,
- I have no compulsion to post, unlike some who apparently believe MilPoints have cash value (in person, these tend to be the same people whose self-delusions of intellect and popularity cause them to monopolize conversations), and
- I'm familiar with the expression "stay in your lane"; this one's not mine.

I now return you to the Legion-bashing thread.


For disclosure, I was a Legion member; my membership lapsed many years ago and I haven't missed it a bit.

Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL withers?
« Reply #35 on: April 21, 2010, 12:35:14 »
WW1        1
WW2   26,430
Korea  2,548
Gulf   8,473
Total 37,452

If someone served in both the Second World War and Korea, how are they counted?  Or have they been counted twice?


Offline Petamocto

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL withers?
« Reply #36 on: April 21, 2010, 12:38:37 »
Journey,

I apologize if you took it that I was going outside my lanes or I offended you.

It was meant as a way to possibly explain it; nothing more.

I have changed my original post to reflect that there seems to be a discrepency with ~4,000 vets from there and ~8,500 vets from there, and it is mere speculation as to how the Legion is posting the numbers they are.

Cheers, and sorry.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2010, 14:13:32 by Petamocto »
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Offline Carcharodon Carcharias

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL withers?
« Reply #37 on: April 21, 2010, 15:38:17 »
Here is the Regina Legion's website. http://www.reginalegion.ca/home   Aside from learning about the ladies Auxilliery being established in 1930, the site has nothing to offer, with the last 'event' scheduled for September 2009, almost 9 months ago.

Like I said, pathetic. Even the website is dead.

My local RSL is on an island with a population of just 16,000, and Regina is a capital city with a population of 200,000.

Gotta make a run into Brisbane for work, nearly 0540h now.

Cheers,

OWDU
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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL withers?
« Reply #38 on: April 21, 2010, 15:45:17 »
I've heard murmors around the armories of one of the Hamilton Branches shutting it's doors. I can only hope it's not the one on Barton, they have always provided tremendous support to the cadets around the here.
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Offline ArmyVern

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL withers?
« Reply #39 on: April 21, 2010, 16:17:13 »
RCL by War Service
WW1                 1

WW2        26,430

Korea         2,548

Gulf            8,473

Total         37,452

Does Canada have that many Gulf War Vets?

Perhaps the "Gulf" numbers include identified "91 Gulf War vets" and "post Sept 2001 identified Gulf Region" Vets? Perhaps identified as "Gulf" because we have TFA, CM, Iraq & Arabian Gulf pers in those numbers?

Just my thoughts ...  ???

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL withers?
« Reply #40 on: April 21, 2010, 19:51:28 »

jolleyjacktar: The RCL was in an old Safeway building wasn't it???

No.  I was raised in Fort MacLeod, Alta.  As far as I know the RCL was purpose built in the age of the Dinosaurs.

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL withers?
« Reply #41 on: April 21, 2010, 20:31:48 »
26th year as a member and have never felt as though I wasn't welcome at any Legion in Canada.........
IF YOU REALLY ENJOY THIS SITE AND WISH TO CONTINUE,THEN PLEASE WIGGLE UP TO THE BAR AND BUY A SUBSCRIPTION OR SOME SWAG FROM THE MILNET.CA STORE OR IF YOU WISH TO ADVERTISE PLEASE SEND MIKE SOME DETAILS.

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL withers?
« Reply #42 on: April 21, 2010, 20:49:29 »
26th year as a member and have never felt as though I wasn't welcome at any Legion in Canada.........

That is because, besides your charming nature, you look like you would be able to crush anyone's head like a grape if they mouthed off!


Even when you wear the Miami Vice Jacket!

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL withers?
« Reply #43 on: April 21, 2010, 20:52:24 »
Tess, do you remember when the 48th Club was on Church St.?
Although not officially RCL, it was a CF Old Comrades Association.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2010, 20:57:08 by mariomike »
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Offline the 48th regulator

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL withers?
« Reply #44 on: April 21, 2010, 20:56:33 »
Tess, do you remember when the 48th Club was on Church St.?

No,

They sold it Just when I joined and moved it over to Leslie Street.  A shame.  We owned the property, and then ended up leasing the new place.  We had to eventually close the new one, as it drained way to much money from our trust.

Now we "Host" the club in the Sgt.'s and W.O's mess, but it is just not the same......The place is never open in the day for the people to use.

dileas

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL withers?
« Reply #45 on: April 21, 2010, 21:02:29 »
Whenever I think of Old Comrades Associations, the 48th Club on Church comes to mind. It was a swell place.
Likewise, there was the Navy Club. I remember going there with my father when it was on Hayden. But, it looks like they moved too. They were there for 70 years. They are building a condo on the site. Going to be over 80 stories.:
http://www.1bloor.com/
Moving the club to Woodbine and Gerrard! Gimme a friggin break.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2010, 21:17:36 by mariomike »
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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL withers?
« Reply #46 on: April 21, 2010, 21:13:42 »
Whenever I think of Old Comrades Associations, the 48th Club on Church comes to mind. It was a swell place.
Likewise, there was the Navy Club. I remember going there with my father when it was on Hayden. But, it looks like they moved too. They were there for 70 years.
To Woodbine and Gerrard! Gimme a friggin break.

Now the Naval Club was the best.  We used to make that our last stop on Levee, and we had a hoot!

dileas

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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL withers?
« Reply #47 on: April 22, 2010, 22:15:37 »

 With over two hundred thousand members, this horse can still kick and will continue to do so regardless of CF involvement or not. It would be nice if you folks decide to get involved but if not, it's no matter, as this civilian and countless others will continue to honour your service (whether or not the Candian Forces and its' members choose to recognize us and our valuable contribution to the fabric of Canadian society).

Perhaps it is the "never-have's" in Legion attire that need to choose to recognize the CF, its members and THEIR contribution to the fabric of Canadian society? 

 :2c:
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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL withers?
« Reply #48 on: April 22, 2010, 22:34:56 »
As the post is about a Legion in PEI, and that being my old stompin' grounds...from growing up there...IMO most Legions in PEI have very little to do with what they were original brought into being for.  There just aren't former serving members in the little places like O'leary, Tignish, Souris, etc in any amount of numbers.

When I was with the PEIR in Summerside, we *always* had, and as I understand, continue to have, a strong relationship between The Regiment and the Legion.  And not only on Nov 11th.

Nov 11th was of course, the day most Legions would see folks in CF uniforms, atleast in Prince County, and we were always welcome there.  Typically, we would provide troops for 3 parades in the S'side area (S'side, Travellers Rest and finally St Eleanors).  The troops standing vigil those days, typically cold wet and grey would rarely go long without a refreshment bought for them at the Miscouche or Summerside Legions, the RCAF Wing in town, or the Lions Club in old St Eleanors. 

Aside from that, B Sqn was ( and likely still is ) hosting an annual "breakfast under canvas" event each summer, where the Sqn mbrs who aren't away on Cl Bs would set up some mod tents, and cook up a 'field breakfast' for the vets/Legion members.  I'd always be tasked out somewhere and missed them but the guys who did them loved doing them. 

The Regimental Association has hosted Mess Dinners, and I believe the Summerside Legion was the venue for atleast one of them.  The one Association Mess Dinner I had the privilege of being V-PMC for, we had invited mbrs of the Summerside Branch, several of which attended. 

B Sqn also used to have its own Sqn Christmas Dinner/Party each year following the Men's Dinner, again Legion members were invited and attended this as well.

Summerside also had an airbase a stones throw away for many years (RCAF Station, then CFB Summerside), and I believe many of the zoomies that retired in Summerside went on to become Ordinary members (like my dad did). 

Perhaps back home, we are just lucky to have a good relationship between whats left of a CF presence in the area (now basically a Troop of D Sqn, PEIR at the old Supply building on the base), based on a decades of a good Legion/CF relationship and a few key people who were members of both B Sqn and the Legion in Summerside.

But if it can work there...it can work elsewhere too.

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« Last Edit: April 22, 2010, 22:43:45 by Eye In The Sky »
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Offline Brasidas

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL withers?
« Reply #49 on: April 23, 2010, 08:27:07 »
With all due respect to the Milnet community, I do not wish to spark some variation on this age old pissing match but when it comes to ther RCL, I stand fast as a staunch proponent of their activities (be they nation-wide or community based).

Thanks for offering your perspective.

Quote from:
In the interest of spreading the goodwill of the RCL, I would invite the CF (active and retired) to examine their relationships with their local branches. From my perspective, the main reason why you guys (and gals) trash the RCl is because you no longer participate in the activities that we conduct on a regular basis.

And which activities would those be? Going to the Legion bar to listen to stories from WW2 and Korea vets that aren't there any more? I did some of that ten years ago. I don't see a point in going to the Legion as a place to chill out when there's a perfectly good Junior Ranks Club with people I relate a hell of a lot more to, much closer.

I took a look at the Edmonton-Kingsway branch website, and the events calendar reads off nothing of interest to me.

Quote from:
In the Vancouver region, the participation of the CF is non-existent apart from some individuals and cadet organizations. I find this particularily offensive when we are commemorating your services, yet your chain of command sees no reason to take part. There is always more to Remembrance than November 11th, yet you will be hard pressed to see anyone in CF dress take part in Vancouver unless they are collecting a paycheque.

And what exactly do you expect from them?

For current service personnel, iirc, all that's in Vancouver is a handful of personnel at the CFRC and a couple reserve units. You're surprised that they draw a paycheque? The only way it works is for the unit to coordinate their deployment to a given parade, and that's only legal if they're on the clock. Somebody drops on parade, they can get hurt. It's a liability issue.

For veteran personnel, such as my father, I don't see a need for you to question why they don't put on DEU's or Legion regalia and step in front of the crowd.  My father never fit in with the crowd of WW2 or Korea vets and feels no need to be in front of the parade.

If the Legion wants to put non-vets out front, fine. I see a bunch of Knights of Columbus at West Ed, ok.  I've never said anything disrespectful about either group's attendance.

Quote from:
As with any long term organization, the RCL is undergoing a rationalization of their functions and in the Lower Mainland and I would hazard the opinion that we are on the right track.

 We are:
building new branches (PoCo, Burnaby, Port Moody, Steveston,etc.)
Housing more veterans (at affordable rates) in well kept properties (New Chelsea society)
offering rehab facilities to those in need of longer term care (Winch House, Vancouver)
supporting youth Track and Field and Cadet corps.
continuing scholarships and bursaries
Maintaining Remembrance duties and Memorials (new Vancouver Cenotaph, updates to New Westminster)
sponsoring community events (parades, Canada day, etc.)

I wouldn't know.

Quote from:
While the membership picture is not rosy across the country, it is up to the individual branches to make themselves relevant to todays modern Veterans and I would argue that the major obstacle to this modernization would be the almost complete lack of interest from todays Vets. Numbering somewhere near 40, 000+ individuals, the complement of Afg. veterans is sufficient to make a dramatic impact on the RCL and its' governance but yet you choose not to participate. (new blood brings new ideas)

I'd agree with other  posters here.

Why should I be interested in trying to actively reform a RCL Branch to suit me, instead of an organization ostensibly dedicated to serving veterans seeking out how to suit my needs. I don't fit. My friends and family who are ex-CF don't fit. Ergo, we do something else.

Quote from:
With over two hundred thousand members, this horse can still kick and will continue to do so regardless of CF involvement or not. It would be nice if you folks decide to get involved but if not, it's no matter, as this civilian and countless others will continue to honour your service (whether or not the Candian Forces and its' members choose to recognize us and our valuable contribution to the fabric of Canadian society).

That last sentence grates the hell out of me. The Legion isn't without purpose, but it's got a dwindling purpose in my opinion. The care of aging vets is going by the wayside as they die off. The social venue provided for the same is important in staving off senility. But the dismissal of the fact that it's irrelevant to more recent vets, placing responsibility for that solely upon their shoulders, and expounding upon your "contribution to the fabric of Canadian society" despite our apparent lack of recognition is insulting.

It's not that the Legion hasn't done some good things, but when you're saying that we're just too dense to be a part of it (or to not be awed by its glory), it just maybe, maybe possible that you're off-base. A little bit.