Author Topic: Afghan Rapes & Canadian Soldiers' Duty  (Read 88492 times)

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Offline GAP

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Re: Afghanistani Rapes and Canadian Soldiers Duty
« Reply #50 on: June 18, 2008, 11:13:07 »
Hmmm....we may busy protecting our own......

Startled UK Marines Hassled By Gay Afghans
By Chris Stephen In Bagram TheScotsman.net (5-24-02) 6-4-2
 Article Link

British marines returning from an operation deep in the Afghan mountains spoke last night of an alarming new threat - being propositioned by swarms of gay local farmers.

An Arbroath marine, James Fletcher, said: "They were more terrifying than the al-Qaeda. One bloke who had painted toenails was offering to paint ours. They go about hand in hand, mincing around the village."

While the marines failed to find any al-Qaeda during the seven-day Operation Condor, they were propositioned by dozens of men in villages the troops were ordered to search.

"We were pretty shocked," Marine Fletcher said. "We discovered from the Afghan soldiers we had with us that a lot of men in this country have the same philosophy as ancient Greeks: a woman for babies, a man for pleasure,."

Originally, the marines had sent patrols into several villages in the mountains near the town of Khost, hoping to catch up with al-Qaeda suspects who last week fought a four-hour gun battle with soldiers of the Australian SAS. The hardened troops, their faces covered in camouflage cream and weight down with weapons, radios and ammunition, were confronted with Afghans wanting to stroke their hair.

"It was hell," said Corporal Paul Richard, 20. "Every village we went into we got a group of men wearing make-up coming up, stroking our hair and cheeks and making kissing noises."

At one stage, troops were invited into a house and asked to dance. Citing the need to keep momentum in their search and destroy mission, the marines made their excuses and left. "They put some music on and ask us to dance. I told them where to go," said Cpl Richard. "Some of the guys turned tail and fled. It was hideous."

The Afghan hill tribes live in some of the most isolated communities in the country. "I think a lot of the problem is that they don,t have the women around a lot," said another marine, Vaz Pickles. "We only saw about two women in the whole six days. It was all very disconcerting."

A second problem the British found came minutes after the first helicopter touched down at one of the hilltop firebases, when local farmers appeared demanding compensation for goats they claimed had been blown off the mountains by the rotor blades. "Every time we landed a Chinook near a village, we got some irate bloke running up to us saying his goat has just got blown off the mountain ridge by the helicopter - and then he demanded a hundred dollars compensation," said Major Phil Joyce, commander of Whisky Company, one of four companies deployed.

As patrols moved away from the landing zones, the locals began pestering Afghan troops attached to the marines with ever more outrageous compensation demands - topping off at a demand from one village elder for $500 (£300) for damage to a tree by the downdraft from helicopters.

But the marines were under orders to win the "hearts and minds" of local farmers in what is one of the few remaining Taleban bastions. "I managed to barter him down to two marine pens, a pencil and a rubber," Major Joyce said. "He went away quite happy ."
More on link

Come to think of it, maybe it was the Taliban fighters who were crossdressing......
« Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 11:16:29 by GAP »
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Offline the 48th regulator

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Re: Afghanistani Rapes and Canadian Soldiers Duty
« Reply #51 on: June 18, 2008, 11:40:56 »
It isn't a case of abuse of authority, it is tradition and will continue despite what the do gooders and bleeding hearts think. The CF is under no obligation or order to interfere with the local customs and traditions, in fact we are ordered to respect them. Get off of your high horses folks there is nothing we can or should do about this it is there country and we are NOT there to impose our morals on them or we will risk losing more Afghan allies .

What is the purpose of your post, and what does it have to do with the thread?

The thread was about Children being abused, where some articles alluded that Older men take on younger ones as their plaything. There is no high horse when it is our job to stop the rape of children, as it is internationally dictated.

Should we have walked away from the gates of the extermination camps, using the same argument you are talking about?

Get up on the horse, and be proactive in stopping degenerates, abusing their new given power on the weak.  Your ignorant statement, disregards international law, and your duty to help the people of Afghanistan, by confusing the two topics.

dileas

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Re: Afghanistani Rapes and Canadian Soldiers Duty
« Reply #52 on: June 18, 2008, 11:42:44 »
It isn't a case of abuse of authority, it is tradition and will continue despite what the do gooders and bleeding hearts think. The CF is under no obligation or order to interfere with the local customs and traditions, in fact we are ordered to respect them. Get off of your high horses folks there is nothing we can or should do about this it is there country and we are NOT there to impose our morals on them or we will risk losing more Afghan allies .

Part of past and current "customs and traditions" in AFG include corruption in the government and justice sectors - should we overlook those too?  If the media quoted him properly, our Foreign Affairs Minister doesn't think so:  ""We made clear to the president that Canadians expect that if we're going to be in Afghanistan - Canadian lives are being lost here, there's a lot of money being spent - there's got to be a sense of public confidence that the money and the lives are in pursuit of something worthy ....  And when there's a scent of corruption you get people turning off. And so, I explained to him the importance of dealing with that."

With the (generally) good back-and-forth here, I'm now able to zero in a bit more precisely:  I'm not talking about societal acceptance of pedophilia in AFG, I'm talking about specific behaviours by AFG security forces (cops or police).

Are Canadian efforts going to change morals and attitudes in AFG regarding pedophelia?  It would be nice, but it's NOT bloody likely, given the history.

Is it going to be easy to deal with pedophilic behaviour BY SECURITY FORCES in AFG?  No way.

Should we say/do nothing about this behaviour by security forces because it's hard?  No way.

Can we say, "hey, if the rest of AFG society can do it, why can't the security forces do it?"  I don't think so - as many on this board know, police and soldiers are held to a higher standard of expectation than the general public.  How can an AFG cop deal with, say, a complaint about such behaviour if he's doing it himself?  Can you say "conflict of interest" in a HUGE way?

- edit to fix dopey omission -
« Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 11:47:35 by milnewstbay »
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Re: Afghanistani Rapes and Canadian Soldiers Duty
« Reply #53 on: June 18, 2008, 12:02:33 »
I  respect  you all immensely for dealing with these thorny problems. I wanted to throw in a new perspective for your opinion. Rather than  looking at  these incidents from   the point of view  of immediate  child-man consequences,   I wonder what the  longer term effect  of a no-tolerance policy for  child rape might be? Do you think that  preventing or  interrupting a rape (or any crime under the UN that may be a "tradition") or prosecuting a rapist would have a beneficial long term effect? Would the  victims  grow up trusting  Cnd soldiers and be more likely to be on "your side"  years from now when they  are adults?   Would their parents be more likely to be allies now?
« Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 12:05:28 by visitor »

Offline ArmyVern

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Re: Afghanistani Rapes and Canadian Soldiers Duty
« Reply #54 on: June 18, 2008, 12:27:58 »
I  respect  you all immensely for dealing with these thorny problems. I wanted to throw in a new perspective for your opinion. Rather than  looking at  these incidents from   the point of view  of immediate  child-man consequences,   I wonder what the  longer term effect  of a no-tolerance policy for  child rape might be? Do you think that  preventing or  interrupting a rape (or any crime under the UN that may be a "tradition") or prosecuting a rapist would have a beneficial long term effect? Would the  victims  grow up trusting  Cnd soldiers and be more likely to be on "your side"  years from now when they  are adults?   Would their parents be more likely to be allies now?

Visitor,

Please don't misinterpret anything anyone has said in this thread; you can be rest assured that I have zero doubt that any Canadian Soldier (male or female) would immediately intervene (enact zero tolerance) if ever stumbling accross/witnessing/hearing about child-rape. There's not a doubt in my mind. Rest assured as well, that Canadian soldiers have had occasion to do exactly this before, sadly.

I'm not sure that an individual crime of rape would qualify for prosecution under UN War Crimes. That is an individual act for which an individual would be charged with a crime. If this is a "group" action, such as was witnessed in the Balkans where women/girls were rounded up and routinely utilized by forces with the consent/oversight/and support of the CoC ... it now becomes a War Crime or "Crime against humantity".

In all the "data" put forth so far in this thread via linkages etc ... there is only mention of one case of "rape" (Cpl Schouten's account). All other media have referred to boys (perhaps some "underaged") prostituting themselves to both Afghan civilians and mebers of the ANA. This does not necessarily fall under the "crimes against humanity, nor war crimes". (That does NOT mean that it is pretty by any means). Boys are selling themselves, men are buying. It's a "normal" and "culturally accepted" thing to do over there. The ANA has certainly not organized this ... it existed and was accepted long before the ANA existed and has always been part of everyday life. Ergo, it would even be hard to argue that a member of the ANA is committing a war crime just because they wear a uniform.

I would love to live in a world where things like this did not occur, where this was not deemed acceptable.

Education certainly would go a long way towards prevention --- but nothing will change until the population of Afghanistan realizes that there is just so much wrong with this practise. It's been there for hundreds of years ... it'll NOT disappear overnight - no matter how much we in the west wish it to. They, quite simple, see no wrong in their actions. And given that they see no wrong in their actions -- it may even be possible that the local populace only sees "normal & acceptable" things occuring -- and with it being "normal" for there, they probably don't see any abuse of authority occuring either.
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Re: Afghanistani Rapes and Canadian Soldiers Duty
« Reply #55 on: June 18, 2008, 13:24:30 »

In all the "data" put forth so far in this thread via linkages etc ... there is only mention of one case of "rape" (Cpl Schouten's account). All other media have referred to boys (perhaps some "underaged") prostituting themselves to both Afghan civilians and mebers of the ANA. This does not necessarily fall under the "crimes against humanity, nor war crimes". (That does NOT mean that it is pretty by any means). Boys are selling themselves, men are buying. It's a "normal" and "culturally accepted" thing to do over there. The ANA has certainly not organized this ... it existed and was accepted long before the ANA existed and has always been part of everyday life. Ergo, it would even be hard to argue that a member of the ANA is committing a war crime just because they wear a uniform.

I would love to live in a world where things like this did not occur, where this was not deemed acceptable.

Education certainly would go a long way towards prevention --- but nothing will change until the population of Afghanistan realizes that there is just so much wrong with this practise. It's been there for hundreds of years ... it'll NOT disappear overnight - no matter how much we in the west wish it to. They, quite simple, see no wrong in their actions. And given that they see no wrong in their actions -- it may even be possible that the local populace only sees "normal & acceptable" things occuring -- and with it being "normal" for there, they probably don't see any abuse of authority occuring either.

Sorry Vern,

You are wrong;

http://www.iccnow.org/documents/Canada.CrAgH.WcrEng.pdf

Crimes against humanity

1. For the purpose of this Statute, "crime against humanity" means any of the
following acts when committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack directed
against any civilian population, with knowledge of the attack:
(a) murder;
(b) extermination;
(c) enslavement;
(d) deportation or forcible transfer of population;
(e) imprisonment or other severe deprivation of physical liberty in violation of
fundamental rules of international law;
(f) torture;
(g) rape, sexual slavery, enforced prostitution, forced pregnancy, enforced
sterilization, or any other form of sexual violence of comparable gravity;

(h) persecution against any identifiable group or collectivity on political, racial,
national, ethnic, cultural, religious, gender as defined in paragraph 3, or other
grounds that are universally recognized as impermissible under international law,
in connection with any act referred to in this paragraph or any crime within the
jurisdiction of the Court;
(i) enforced disappearance of persons;
(j) the crime of apartheid;
(k) other inhumane acts of a similar character intentionally causing great suffering,
or serious injury to body or to mental or physical health.

www.iccnow.org/


dileas

tess
I know that I’m not perfect and that I don’t claim to be, so before you point your fingers make sure your hands are clean.

Offline WB

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Re: Afghanistani Rapes and Canadian Soldiers Duty
« Reply #56 on: June 18, 2008, 13:55:59 »
Quote
Education certainly would go a long way towards prevention --- but nothing will change until the population of Afghanistan realizes that there is just so much wrong with this practise. It's been there for hundreds of years ... it'll NOT disappear overnight - no matter how much we in the west wish it to. They, quite simple, see no wrong in their actions. And given that they see no wrong in their actions -- it may even be possible that the local populace only sees "normal & acceptable" things occuring -- and with it being "normal" for there, they probably don't see any abuse of authority occuring either.

Vern, I agree 100%

Under international law this weird part of Afghan culture may be illegal, but these practices will not change untill the Government of Afghanistan can provide a stable environment for the people to recieve a proper education.

Quote
Is it going to be easy to deal with pedophilic behaviour BY SECURITY FORCES in AFG?  No way.

Should we say/do nothing about this behaviour by security forces because it's hard?  No way.

Meddling in the sexual habits of the ANA is counter-productive to the long term goal. We can stop them from raping each other in front of us and encourage them to give up the practice altogether, but it is just not practical to actively seek out and charge individual ANA guys with war crimes. It would be like banging our heads against a wall to accomplish nothing more than cause animosity between our soldiers and the ANA we are supposed to be working with. If we don't accept this basic fact of Afghan culture in the short term, it will never have the chance to change in the long term.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 14:00:15 by Wonderbread »

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Re: Afghanistani Rapes and Canadian Soldiers Duty
« Reply #57 on: June 18, 2008, 13:58:02 »
Vern, I agree 100%

Under international law this weird part of Afghan culture may be illegal, but these practices will not change untill the Government of Afghanistan can provide a stable environment for the people to recieve a proper education.

Meddling in the sexual habits of the ANA is counter-productive to the long term goal. We can stop them from raping each other in front of us and encourage them to give up the practice altogether, but it isjust not practical to actively seek out and charge individual ANA guys with war crimes. It would be like banging our heads against a wall to accomplish nothing more than cause animosity between our soldiers and the ANA we are supposed to be working with. If we don't accept this basic fact of Afghan culture in the short term, it will never have the chance to change in the long term.

You have now totally lost me,

Why are we there again?

dileas

tess
I know that I’m not perfect and that I don’t claim to be, so before you point your fingers make sure your hands are clean.

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Re: Afghanistani Rapes and Canadian Soldiers Duty
« Reply #58 on: June 18, 2008, 14:14:11 »
Quote
You have now totally lost me,

Why are we there again?

I agree with The Ruxted Group:

Thursday, September 7. 2006- The Afghanistan Debate
http://ruxted.ca/index.php?/archives/24-The-Afghanistan-Debate.html
Quote
Canada is in Afghanistan today to -

• help Afghanistan rebuild;
• defend our national interests; and
• ensure Canadian leadership in world affairs.

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Re: Afghanistani Rapes and Canadian Soldiers Duty
« Reply #59 on: June 18, 2008, 14:20:25 »
Vern,   I guess I was just wondering if rather than being "culturally accepted" by ALL  are there "pockets"  in the  Afghan population that would  decry the practice of the prostitution of young boys  if they had a voice.  Their parents? the boys themselves  (if they had other ways to make $$)?, their teachers, local doctors?  It is a  complicated problem that cannot  have a military solution just as our  similar home grown issues are not solely a problem for the police. Our worst  Canadian social problems require a multi-pronged approach: with force,  with law, with education, with social support, etc.  One alone will not be as effective as everyone working together toward the same goal, understanding what each can contribute.    Does anyone know of any local Afghans, organized or not, who could address these issues, and then enlist the soldiers  to assist in  whatever approach they  advise, when the situation arises?   Is there a formalized arm of the DND  that is a link to local (Afghan)  social advocates  that can address the issues that ultimately do come back  for the soldiers to deal with anyway?

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Re: Afghanistani Rapes and Canadian Soldiers Duty
« Reply #60 on: June 18, 2008, 14:27:18 »
I agree with The Ruxted Group:

Thursday, September 7. 2006- The Afghanistan Debate
http://ruxted.ca/index.php?/archives/24-The-Afghanistan-Debate.html

But is that the current mandate of the Military Mission there?

http://www.dnd.ca/site/Newsroom/view_news_e.asp?id=1703

Wy are we there? /b]
Canada is in Afghanistan at the request of the democratically elected government, along with 36 other nations, and as part of a UN-sanctioned mission to help build a stable, democratic, and self-sufficient society.

About 2500 members of the Canadian Forces (CF) are currently serving as part of Joint Task Force Afghanistan (JTF AFG). They play a key role in the NATO-led International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) mission whose goal is to improve the security situation in Afghanistan and assist in rebuilding the country.

Canada’s continued engagement in Afghanistan helps create the conditions for longer-term reconstruction. All CF operations in Afghanistan are conducted with the consent and at the request of the Afghan government to:

Provide the people of Afghanistan with the hope for a brighter future by establishing the security necessary to promote development and an environment that is conducive to the improvement of Afghan life;
Conduct operations in support of Afghan National Security Forces;
Help strengthen and enhance Afghan Governance capacity;
Help extend the authority of the Government of Afghanistan in the South;
Facilitate the delivery of programs and projects that support the economic recovery and rehabilitation of Afghanistan; and
Assist in addressing humanitarian needs of Afghans by supporting Canadian governmental organizations and NGOs whose efforts meet Canada’s objectives.
The Afghan people are relying on the international community to help them rebuild their lives and their country after having suffered through decades of instability, oppression and insurgency.


But, you this right?

dileas

tess
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Re: Afghanistani Rapes and Canadian Soldiers Duty
« Reply #61 on: June 18, 2008, 14:33:42 »
I agree with The Ruxted Group ...

So do I, but we have to go by what the government says is the rationale....

I'm going to add to Tess' quote from the same ref as the last post - in fact the next paragraph on the same page....

"By supporting the rebuilding of institutions such as independent courts, police and an army, Canada is on the ground laying the foundation for Afghans to govern themselves and secure a better future."

Do we help rebuild in the old mode, or in a "they'll trust you more" mode?

“Most great military blunders stem from the good intentions of some high-ranking buffoon ...” – George MacDonald Fraser, "The Sheik and the Dustbin"

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Re: Afghanistani Rapes and Canadian Soldiers Duty
« Reply #62 on: June 18, 2008, 14:34:21 »
Sounds good to me, Tess.

I don't see the point you're trying to make, though.

I think we both agree that ANA guys keeping boy toys is wrong, but the only solution I see is a short term sacrifice for long term goals.

Quote
Do we help rebuild in the old mode, or in a "they'll trust you more" mode?

What do you mean?

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Re: Afghanistani Rapes and Canadian Soldiers Duty
« Reply #63 on: June 18, 2008, 14:40:03 »

Crimes against humanity

1. For the purpose of this Statute, "crime against humanity" means any of the
following acts when committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack directed
against any civilian population
, with knowledge of the attack:
(a) murder;
(b) extermination;
(c) enslavement;
(d) deportation or forcible transfer of population;
(e) imprisonment or other severe deprivation of physical liberty in violation of
fundamental rules of international law;
(f) torture;
(g) rape, sexual slavery, enforced prostitution, forced pregnancy, enforced
sterilization, or any other form of sexual violence of comparable gravity;

(h) persecution against any identifiable group or collectivity on political, racial,
national, ethnic, cultural, religious, gender as defined in paragraph 3, or other
grounds that are universally recognized as impermissible under international law,
in connection with any act referred to in this paragraph or any crime within the
jurisdiction of the Court;
(i) enforced disappearance of persons;
(j) the crime of apartheid;
(k) other inhumane acts of a similar character intentionally causing great suffering,
or serious injury to body or to mental or physical health.

www.iccnow.org/


dileas

tess


Sorry, but I think I must agree with Vern.  As nasty as rape is, the way the above citation reads, individual acts of rape which are not as part of a widespread deliberate campaign of rape do not fall under the category of crimes against humanity.  Using rape as a means of mass intimidation, to encourage ethnic cleansing, etc would indeed be such, but that's not the case in question.
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Re: Afghanistani Rapes and Canadian Soldiers Duty
« Reply #64 on: June 18, 2008, 14:41:29 »
Sounds good to me, Tess.

I don't see the point you're trying to make, though.

I think we both agree that ANA guys keeping boy toys is wrong, but the only solution I see is a short term sacrifice for long term goals.

What do you mean?

My point is we do not turn a blind eye. If we witness, or come by information that the abuse of the civillian population is happening whether by Police, ANA, Combatants or Beligerents it is our duty to act and report this through our chain of command.


This has nothing to do with imposing our views or laws, but uphold international law and mainting the mission handed to us by our government, detailed by the link I gave.

dileas

tess
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Re: Afghanistani Rapes and Canadian Soldiers Duty
« Reply #65 on: June 18, 2008, 14:42:58 »
Sorry, but I think I must agree with Vern.  As nasty as rape is, the way the above citation reads, individual acts of rape which are not as part of a widespread deliberate campaign of rape do not fall under the category of crimes against humanity.  Using rape as a means of mass intimidation, to encourage ethnic cleansing, etc would indeed be such, but that's not the case in question.

Can you please quantify the amount of rapes it takes before we take action?

dileas

tess
I know that I’m not perfect and that I don’t claim to be, so before you point your fingers make sure your hands are clean.

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Re: Afghanistani Rapes and Canadian Soldiers Duty
« Reply #66 on: June 18, 2008, 14:47:45 »
Quote
Can you please quantify the amount of rapes it takes before we take action?

What action would we take?

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Re: Afghanistani Rapes and Canadian Soldiers Duty
« Reply #67 on: June 18, 2008, 14:52:39 »
What action would we take?


Without knowing what your ROE are, How would you handle an attack on a civilian by an armed combatant?

Another step that comes to mind would be Report it through my chain of command.

dileas

tess


edit for grammar and spelling...
« Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 15:05:50 by the 48th regulator »
I know that I’m not perfect and that I don’t claim to be, so before you point your fingers make sure your hands are clean.

Offline ArmyVern

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Re: Afghanistani Rapes and Canadian Soldiers Duty
« Reply #68 on: June 18, 2008, 15:15:08 »
Vern,   I guess I was just wondering if rather than being "culturally accepted" by ALL  are there "pockets"  in the  Afghan population that would  decry the practice of the prostitution of young boys  if they had a voice.  Their parents? the boys themselves  (if they had other ways to make $$)?, their teachers, local doctors?  It is a  complicated problem that cannot  have a military solution just as our  similar home grown issues are not solely a problem for the police. Our worst  Canadian social problems require a multi-pronged approach: with force,  with law, with education, with social support, etc.  One alone will not be as effective as everyone working together toward the same goal, understanding what each can contribute.    Does anyone know of any local Afghans, organized or not, who could address these issues, and then enlist the soldiers  to assist in  whatever approach they  advise, when the situation arises?   Is there a formalized arm of the DND  that is a link to local (Afghan)  social advocates  that can address the issues that ultimately do come back  for the soldiers to deal with anyway?

I'm unsure of the answer.

They certainly feel it's acceptable to "systemiclly practise" or "force" 14 year old females into sexual relationships/marriages that they are not ready for and have not consented to. And there is zero "consent" on the part of the girls involved in that, while the boys are prostituting themselves willingly. The girls aren't even getting paid for crying out loud ... and this is happening to them routinely, systemicly, and is known world-wide.

It is also an "abhorable" practise by our western "standards and ideals" and is also looked down upon by the United Nations ...

Do we start charging the ANA with war crimes if they should happen to have a wife of 14 or 15 in an arranged marriage? The first night of that marriage guess what happens? Rape. And, there's no other word for it. The girls are NOT there consensually OR voluntarily like the boys prostituing themselves are. And, why just charge the ANA?

I just find it funny that our "western" ideals are now dictating that we take action in one case (where the boys are acting consensually) and not in the case where actual RAPE of these young arranged brides is occuring systemicly. If boys prostituting themselves on a voluntary basis constitutes a war crime ... then certainly 14 year old females being forced into marriages and raped must.

Why, all of a sudden, and now that it's "boys" and "men" involved vice "girls" and "men" have our sensibilities become so much more offended?

Both things disgust me, but where's the orders to report the raping of these girls which is widespread (reporting the marriage will suffice - everyone is aware the "rape" occurs that first night as a result of that marriage), widely known, and sanctioned? Those girls are not volunteers ... unlike the boys. That just seems so wrong to me.
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Offline the 48th regulator

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Re: Afghanistani Rapes and Canadian Soldiers Duty
« Reply #69 on: June 18, 2008, 15:20:47 »
I'm unsure of the answer.

They certainly feel it's acceptable to "systemiclly practise" or "force" 14 year old females into sexual relationships/marriages that they are not ready for and have not consented to. And there is zero "consent" on the part of the girls involved in that, while the boys are prostituting themselves willingly. The girls aren't even getting paid for crying out loud ... and this is happening to them routinely, systemicly, and is known world-wide.

It is also an "abhorable" practise by our western "standards and ideals" and is also looked down upon by the United Nations ...

Do we start charging the ANA with war crimes if they should happen to have a wife of 14 or 15 in an arranged marriage? The first night of that marriage guess what happens? Rape. And, there's no other word for it. The girls are NOT there consensually OR voluntarily like the boys prostituing themselves are. And, why just charge the ANA?

I just find it funny that our "western" ideals are now dictating that we take action in one case (where the boys are acting consensually) and not in the case where actual RAPE of these young arranged brides is occuring systemicly. If boys prostituting themselves on a voluntary basis constitutes a war crime ... then certainly 14 year old females being forced into marriages and raped must.

Why, all of a sudden, and now that it's "boys" and "men" involved vice "girls" and "men" have our sensibilities become so much more offended?

Both things disgust me, but where's the orders to report the raping of these girls which is widespread (reporting the marriage will suffice - everyone is aware the "rape" occurs that first night as a result of that marriage), widely known, and sanctioned? Those girls are not volunteers ... unlike the boys. That just seems so wrong to me.

Oh great Vern,

Please do not try to turn this now from the "enforcing western culture" agrument to the Male and female debate.

Your point is valid, and if there are complaints of this happening, then we continue enforcing international law.  We have allowed Females from the region to return to school, a huge cultural no no.  Maybe we can show them too that the rights of children must be upheld.

dileas

tess
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Re: Afghanistani Rapes and Canadian Soldiers Duty
« Reply #70 on: June 18, 2008, 15:30:35 »
 If  girls/ young  women are raped and bear children, they can develop fistulas,  which, if untreated,  contribute to  continually leaking urine and feces, making  them  undesirable  sexual partners ( even if they were consenting), sending their husbands to the boys... Fistulas are treatable but millions of women in undeveloped countries are silently affected. 

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Re: Afghanistani Rapes and Canadian Soldiers Duty
« Reply #71 on: June 18, 2008, 15:33:42 »
ashley mc assiac...pashton or acadian  and what about the U of T prof.'s gov't funded paper (I believe circa early 90's )Men Loving Boys  or the BC author's or artist's man/boy love stories /drawings that made supreme court headlines ... easier to finger- point outward than inward
and what about the roman catholic sex abuse scandal and our own native school saga(newly apologized for) we haven't dragged ourselves so far out of the cess pool that we can proclaim the dry moral high-ground ... hell we're barely out of the weeds ourselves
personally i find this as repugnent as teen-age girls /boys working our own streets
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Re: Afghanistani Rapes and Canadian Soldiers Duty
« Reply #72 on: June 18, 2008, 15:35:18 »
Can you please quantify the amount of rapes it takes before we take action?

Ma'am,

I am not minimizing the seriousness or nastiness of rape nor suggesting in any way that even one offense is acceptable. My point is merely that rape, per se, is not a crime against humanity. To qualify it as a crime against humanity, it must take place in a context of mass rape or organized rape, as occurred in FRY.  If all rapes were considered by law to be crimes against humanity, we would be sending Paul Bernardo and Clifford Olsen to The Hague. The reality is, while they are without question detestable scum, that they are not war criminals any more than a street goblin in Winnipeg is when he kills a rival dope dealer.

Given that, the entire question of the chain of command being criminally charged is moot.

As to our troops' reaction to individual cases, that as always depends entirely on ROEs, which are drafted by lawyers for approval by politicians on the advice of civil servants and implementation by soldiers.  Not trying to be funny, but that is the reality.  ROEs are classified, but would spell out what our troops may or must do in cases of serious criminal acts by one Afghan against another.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 15:38:56 by TrexLink »
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Re: Afghanistani Rapes and Canadian Soldiers Duty
« Reply #73 on: June 18, 2008, 15:38:34 »
Oh great Vern,

Please do not try to turn this now from the "enforcing western culture" agrument to the Male and female debate.

Your point is valid, and if there are complaints of this happening, then we continue enforcing international law.  We have allowed Females from the region to return to school, a huge cultural no no.  Maybe we can show them too that the rights of children must be upheld.

dileas

tess


I'm not trying to make this a girl vs boy thing Tess.

I flat out stated that both practises are deplorable (in line with my own personal value system).

I agree with you ... but who gets to decide what is the "right" standard? The west? Isn't that then "imposition?" Isn't that the exact opposite of what we keep telling the lefties we're doing over there? That we are NOT there to impose western standards -- that we are there to assist the Afghan nation rebuild etc?? I can find quite a few links on this site where we've stated that it was not our intent, nor our mandate to impose our standards/laws/rules and turn them into a mini-USA or Canada.

With arranged marriages now on the table, and with their cultural value of Man-Love Thursdays ... we may as well lock up the vast majority of the Afghan population. This IS their cultural norm. It's certainly not ours - but it is theirs.

Let's go back to your link from earlier ... right underneath the para G that you turned yellow ... read para H.

Quote
Crimes against humanity

1. For the purpose of this Statute, "crime against humanity" means any of the
following acts when committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack directed
against any civilian population, with knowledge of the attack
:
(a) murder;
(b) extermination;
(c) enslavement;
(d) deportation or forcible transfer of population;
(e) imprisonment or other severe deprivation of physical liberty in violation of
fundamental rules of international law;
(f) torture;
(g) rape, sexual slavery, enforced prostitution, forced pregnancy, enforced
sterilization, or any other form of sexual violence of comparable gravity;

(h) persecution against any identifiable group or collectivity on political, racial,
national, ethnic, cultural, religious, gender as defined in paragraph 3, or other
grounds that are universally recognized as impermissible under international law,
in connection with any act referred to in this paragraph or any crime within the
jurisdiction of the Court;
(i) enforced disappearance of persons;
(j) the crime of apartheid;
(k) other inhumane acts of a similar character intentionally causing great suffering,
or serious injury to body or to mental or physical health.

www.iccnow.org/


dileas

tess

By enforcing our western values onto them because we don't agree with their cultural values ... aren't we now treading a pretty fine line of "Crimes against Humanity" ourselves?

We can not define someone's values for them, nor can we enforce our culture as "the correct one" upon them. Who made us God?
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Re: Afghanistani Rapes and Canadian Soldiers Duty
« Reply #74 on: June 18, 2008, 15:51:12 »
I'm not trying to make this a girl vs boy thing Tess.

I flat out stated that both practises are deplorable (in line with my own personal value system).

I agree with you ... but who gets to decide what is the "right" standard? The west? Isn't that then "imposition?" Isn't that the exact opposite of what we keep telling the lefties we're doing over there? That we are NOT there to impose western standards -- that we are there to assist the Afghan nation rebuild etc?? I can find quite a few links on this site where we've stated that it was not our intent, nor our mandate to impose our standards/laws/rules and turn them into a mini-USA or Canada.

With arranged marriages now on the table, and with their cultural value of Man-Love Thursdays ... we may as well lock up the vast majority of the Afghan population. This IS their cultural norm. It's certainly not ours - but it is theirs.

Let's go back to your link from earlier ... right underneath the para G that you turned yellow ... read para H.

By enforcing our western values onto them because we don't agree with their cultural values ... aren't we now treading a pretty fine line of "Crimes against Humanity" ourselves?

We can not define someone's values for them, nor can we enforce our culture as "the correct one" upon them. Who made us God?


Then we might as well pull out, as by your point, we are enforcing our views their with all of our actions.

The Taliban, was their legal Government, yet we are fighting them to keep out.  Why?

dileas

tess
I know that I’m not perfect and that I don’t claim to be, so before you point your fingers make sure your hands are clean.