Author Topic: Req : Possible Griffon Replacement  (Read 46532 times)

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Online Good2Golf

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Re: Req : Possible Griffon Replacement
« Reply #50 on: December 24, 2013, 11:36:55 »
Zoomie: Like SF2 notes, probably a mild avionics refresh to leverage multi-function display-driven AMS and the FADEC engines, and that's it.  That would be a pragmatic allocation of taxpayers' dollars.  With the unrealistic expectations of "lift" (in the sense of more than just light utility lift) removed from the Griffon's principle repertoire, it should be able to be employed in a focused, tailored manner with greater supportability than it currently does sitting t a fifth of a century age with minimal mods.

Cheers
G2G

Offline Ditch

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Re: Req : Possible Griffon Replacement
« Reply #51 on: December 24, 2013, 12:09:45 »
a mild avionics refresh
Maybe a glance at the 412CF that 3CFFTS uses currently - all the leg work has been done by the contractor.
Per Ardua Ad Astra

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Re: Req : Possible Griffon Replacement
« Reply #52 on: December 24, 2013, 16:14:38 »
It's not bad, Zoomie. I've flown the Outlaw FSim and the AMS is nice, but the PFD is a smaller designated format (two stacked 4" displays), vice larger MFD-based, which might limit the operational flexibility (mapping, nav, , etc...) Definitely a move in the right direction, beyond 40's/50's era dials (ironically driven by dual 1553 buses and an AIRINC 429 bus).  A fourth channel on the AFCS would be nice...


Offline recceguy

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Re: Req : Possible Griffon Replacement
« Reply #53 on: December 24, 2013, 16:22:10 »
It's not bad, Zoomie. I've flown the Outlaw FSim and the AMS is nice, but the PFD is a smaller designated format (two stacked 4" displays), vice larger MFD-based, which might limit the operational flexibility (mapping, nav, , etc...) Definitely a move in the right direction, beyond 40's/50's era dials (ironically driven by dual 1553 buses and an AIRINC 429 bus).  A fourth channel on the AFCS would be nice...

I can drive a bus :christmas happy:
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Offline GAP

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Re: Req : Possible Griffon Replacement
« Reply #54 on: December 24, 2013, 16:24:23 »
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I´m not so sure about the universe

Offline recceguy

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Re: Req : Possible Griffon Replacement
« Reply #55 on: December 24, 2013, 16:43:25 »
a short bus?  ;D

If need be ;)

Buckle up yer helmets!
“I am a Canadian, free to speak without fear, free to worship in my own way, free to stand for what I think right, free to oppose what I believe wrong, or free to choose those who shall govern my country. This heritage of freedom I pledge to uphold for myself and all mankind.”

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Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Req : Possible Griffon Replacement
« Reply #56 on: December 24, 2013, 17:08:19 »
It's not bad, Zoomie. I've flown the Outlaw FSim and the AMS is nice, but the PFD is a smaller designated format (two stacked 4" displays), vice larger MFD-based, which might limit the operational flexibility (mapping, nav, , etc...) Definitely a move in the right direction, beyond 40's/50's era dials (ironically driven by dual 1553 buses and an AIRINC 429 bus).  A fourth channel on the AFCS would be nice...

This 1553 bus of which you speak...'tis the devils talk.  It has no place in aviation.  Why, the next heresy you utter will no doubt be that dials are some how inferior to them new fangled telemuvision screens...or that a gyro can be solid state.  Impossible, I say!   ;)

Can you tell how old an airplane I fly in?

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Re: Req : Possible Griffon Replacement
« Reply #57 on: December 24, 2013, 17:41:13 »
And one that doesn't even have an instrument 'T'! :P

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Req : Possible Griffon Replacement
« Reply #58 on: December 24, 2013, 18:08:30 »
And one that doesn't even have an instrument 'T'! :P

We prefer a random pattern of instruments.  Forces pilots to scan.  None of this cockpit ergonomics nonsense for us.    :nod:

Offline SupersonicMax

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Re: Req : Possible Griffon Replacement
« Reply #59 on: December 24, 2013, 18:15:30 »
SF2:  That's why I put a question mark by the C.  Nonetheless, it could be a viable SAR platform, like it already is in the States.

Offline AirDet

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Re: Req : Possible Griffon Replacement
« Reply #60 on: January 28, 2014, 20:55:36 »
Let's try to revive an old topic.

I realize there is no plan to replace the Griffon in the near future.  However, when the time comes, or "if" it were being replaced now, what would the best option be?

Would the Griffon be able to take the same upgrade as the UH-1Y Venom of the USMC?  Or would the RCAF be better off with the UH-60 Black Hawk?

I think best-case scenario would be a common fleet of H-60 variants for the MHP and UTTH fleets.  MH-60R Sea Hawk ASW variant and MH-60S Sea Hawk General Support variant for the MHP to replaced the failed CH-148 Cyclone procurement.  To replace the CH-146 Griffon would be the UH-60M Black Hawk utility variant (with option to convert to AH-60 Battle Hawk attack variant when needed), the MH-60M Black Hawk special operations variant, and the HH-60M Rescue Hawk in the SAR/Base Rescue/Combat Support role.  This would give a common fleet for ease of training, maintenance and logistics as well as being inter-operatable with the US military.

MHP - 18 MH-60R AWS & 12 MH-60S GS
UTTH - 48 UH-60M
SAR - 10 HH-60M
Special Ops - 12 MH-60M

Total of 100 aircraft

A friend of mine (an RCAF Seaking Pilot) was flying Seahawks with the USN when the CBC reported that pilots couldn't escape from the Seahawk if it ditched. He was furious because he felt that a mix of Seahawks and blackhawks would've met Canada's needs economically. While I'm not an expert he was. He agreed with you. The numbers he would propose I'm sure would've been different but the concept was a good one. he woud also point out that the hawk family is the developed world's most used helo.
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Online Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Req : Possible Griffon Replacement
« Reply #61 on: January 29, 2014, 22:03:34 »
I'm out of my lane here, so a little info from the pros would help me:

It was my understanding that the Seahawk is meant to work in conjunction with its "mother ship" for prosecutions at least in ASW, while the Seaking and its replacement are capable of completely autonomous ASW ops. Is my info wrong, or just outdated (i.e. it was like that at first, but not anymore)?

Offline AirDet

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Re: Req : Possible Griffon Replacement
« Reply #62 on: February 13, 2014, 20:51:21 »
Hopefully and AESOP or TACCO will correct me if I get this wrong, but I think the ability to operate alone or with Mother depends on the equipment suite we choose. Given that the Saehawk may have been a contender. She won't be as capable as the mighty Seaking though.
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Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Req : Possible Griffon Replacement
« Reply #63 on: February 14, 2014, 02:19:40 »
I'm out of my lane here, so a little info from the pros would help me:

It was my understanding that the Seahawk is meant to work in conjunction with its "mother ship" for prosecutions at least in ASW, while the Seaking and its replacement are capable of completely autonomous ASW ops. Is my info wrong, or just outdated (i.e. it was like that at first, but not anymore)?

My limited understanding of Seahawks is that the early models were tethered to their ships through hawk link.
The Romeo model seems to be pretty capable on its own.

Offline Baz

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Re: Req : Possible Griffon Replacement
« Reply #64 on: February 15, 2014, 13:05:13 »
There were two models of the Seahawk, 60B (Lamps Mk III) and 60F.  The replaced, respectively, the Sea Sprite (LAmps Mk I) for outer zone ASW, and the Sea King for inner zone ASW.

The 60B did not have a dipping sonar.  It was tethered to the ship via Hawk Link when required.  In effect, you could send one of two things down the link: surface, mainly radar; or subsurface, mainly sono acoustics.  However, it also had the capacitiy to process either of these in abscence of the link, as well as its MAD.  Its limiting factor was crew: 3, the pilot, Co-Pilot / ATO (airborne Tactical Officer), and sensor operator.  This was augmented by up to four directly in the ship's ops room: ASTAC, Air Controller, Above Water, and Below Water (nominally).  Later on they also pushed video down the Hawk Link.  Mainly small deck based.

The 60F had a dipping sonar, but no radar.  It didn't have Hawk Link, but did have a databurst in its tactical computer (as did the Sea King... our Sea King had the software but it was never hooked up to the radio except in trials).  It had a more robust crew of 4: Pilot, Co-Pilot / ATO, enlisted Tactical Sensor Operator (ran the rear tactical computer), and enlisted acoustic sonsor operator.  Mainly carrier based.

The 60R is meant to replace both the 'B and the 'F... it has sonar, sonos, radar, ESM, EO/IR, but no MAD.  It carries an improved hawk Link based on TCDL (Tactical Common Data Link, the same radio type as our Griffins, Auroros, and Sea Kings have), but also has Link-16 to give it enhanced inner zone or independant ops.  Limiting factor is still the crew of three.  Small deck and carrier based.

Finally, the 60S is to replace a bunch of other helos: Mine Counter Measure Sea Stallions, Sea Knights, etc, plus gives them a better shooter capability.  No Hawk Link, but has Link-16.  Only real sensor is EO/IR.  Makes a good hunter killer team with the 60R... the 'R searches actively and the 'S kills quietly.

With the TCDL in the Sea King the Canadian MH community is already having to consider what gets pushed to the ship and what doesn't.  Since now the ship can see your plot (including AIS), video, and pictures, then sometimes there's an expectation that they will make all the decisions... but sometimes there's other info (like the pilot's eyes) that gives the helo a better SA.  The next MH will continue to change the dynamic; unfortunately no Link-16 or TCDL, but Link-11/22 will make us more Merlin like.

Funny this is in a thread about Griffins???

By the way, the 60R can't meet the Canadian requirement (although we could change the requirement).  With all the ASW gear it only has space for a crew of three, plus one squished little pax seat.  As well, anyone talking about commonality between 60 versions doesn't understand the first thing about what it takes to marinize a helo... there's very little actually in common.

Offline X_para76

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Re: Req : Possible Griffon Replacement
« Reply #65 on: February 15, 2014, 13:54:07 »
 :goodpost:
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Offline ArmyRick

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Re: Req : Possible Griffon Replacement
« Reply #66 on: February 16, 2014, 00:10:09 »
Given the fiscal restraints we are facing again, me thinks no helicopters will be a coming in the next few years (or decades?).

Scary thought but as pointed out early, no political will for it.

I still remember John Manley getting flown around in Bosnia in Dutch helicopters in Bosnia. Not sure why our griffons in theatre didn't lift him.
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Re: Req : Possible Griffon Replacement
« Reply #67 on: February 16, 2014, 00:16:53 »
I still remember John Manley getting flown around in Bosnia in Dutch helicopters in Bosnia. Not sure why our griffons in theatre didn't lift him.
They were employed on real operations rather than higher-HQ tourism?  :whistle:
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Re: Req : Possible Griffon Replacement
« Reply #68 on: February 16, 2014, 00:51:11 »
Given the fiscal restraints we are facing again, me thinks no helicopters will be a coming in the next few years (or decades?)...

Other than the remainder of the CH-147F Chinooks that are arriving in Canada, about one every three weeks from Boeing, until all 15 have been delivered by the beginning of this summer. 

 
Regards
G2G

Offline ArmyRick

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Re: Req : Possible Griffon Replacement
« Reply #69 on: February 16, 2014, 01:15:07 »
Rog. The chinook is a signed and done deal. I meant as no new helicopters from ground up will be procured in the foreseeable future. Existing or otherwise.

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Offline Mountie

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Re: Req : Possible Griffon Replacement
« Reply #70 on: September 19, 2016, 10:09:29 »
The Japanese Self-Defence Force is procuring the Bell/Fuji 412 EPI+ variant.  The news release says the + variant has an improved transmission, glass cockpit, higher gross weight, greater airframe durability and longer run-dry endurance.  The helicopter will be available for export. 

This could be a Canadian-manufactured improvement/replacement for the CH-146.  The commonality would allow for a smooth transition for pilot and ground crew training.  The CH-146+ variants could be used by 1 Wing for expeditionary operations while the Combat Support Squadrons could maintain the older Griffons with a modest upgrade.  Replacement aircraft and spare parts would be endless with the aircraft from 1 Wing being replaced and used for spare parts.

Not the best option, but perhaps the only affordable options.

Online Loachman

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Re: Req : Possible Griffon Replacement
« Reply #71 on: September 19, 2016, 11:04:47 »
If one is going to upgrade an aircraft, one may as well upgrade the whole fleet rather than keep two similar ones around.

And a marginally-improved Griffon is still only a marginally-improved Griffon. If we are going to stick with a Huey variant, then the UH1Y is the only worthwhile option, in my opinion.

Offline George Wallace

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Re: Req : Possible Griffon Replacement
« Reply #72 on: September 19, 2016, 11:12:05 »
..... If we are going to stick with a Huey variant, then the UH1Y is the only worthwhile option, in my opinion.

Basically an upgraded and improved "Twin Huey" ?
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Re: Req : Possible Griffon Replacement
« Reply #73 on: September 19, 2016, 11:33:50 »
No, it only looks like a slightly stretched UH-1N.  Its T700-based power train is essentially the same as the Blackhawk or Apache.  Its all-up weight is nearly twice that of a Griffon or Twin Huey.  The Marines did a great job in selling the UH-1Y as an "upgrade"... :salute:


Online Chris Pook

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Re: Req : Possible Griffon Replacement
« Reply #74 on: September 19, 2016, 13:35:31 »
No, it only looks like a slightly stretched UH-1N.  Its T700-based power train is essentially the same as the Blackhawk or Apache.  Its all-up weight is nearly twice that of a Griffon or Twin Huey.  The Marines did a great job in selling the UH-1Y as an "upgrade"... :salute:





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Body shape is a secondary consideration,
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