Author Topic: Sexual Assault & Sexual Misconduct in the CF  (Read 208096 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline recceguy

    A Usual Suspect.

  • "Look, I don't know if shooting penguins will help the environment or not. But I do know that the decision shouldn't be in the hands of people who just wanna kill for fun."
  • Army.ca Myth
  • *****
  • 223,912
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 17,188
  • doddering docent to the museum of misanthropy
    • Army.ca
Re: Upcoming MacLeans Article - Sexual Assaults in the CF
« Reply #25 on: April 24, 2014, 22:32:25 »
Perhaps now that the war is over, it will be easier to take digs at the CF?  This has certainly been a big issue in the US, perhaps inventing a crisis out of two incidents the CBC is trying to get more people to tune in and thereby recoup lost advertising dollars [/conspiracy]

CBC has always taken shots at the military and tends more often to denigrate us. They have never really been onside with us.

They only appear patriotic when it suits them, or it means more revenue. However, if they think the revenues will be higher for demonizing us than praising us, they'll send the pitchfork and torch crowd after us I a heartbeat. They're pretty good at lying until it becomes truth and stretching out perceived bad crap until no one knows what the original initiator was. Flogging a dead horse was perfected at the CBC.
At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child – miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied, demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless. Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats.
-P.J. O’Rouke-


DISCLAIMER - my opinion may cause manginal irritation.

Offline Bruce Monkhouse

    is thinking beach volleyball.

  • Lab Experiment #13
  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 228,625
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 14,501
  • WHERE IS MY BATON?
    • http://www.canadianbands.com./home.html
Re: Upcoming MacLeans Article - Sexual Assaults in the CF
« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2014, 22:36:54 »
The other thing is perception..............according to some people I probably "sexually assaulted" about 25 women while waiting for my Daughter at a Hamilton mall tonight. ::)
IF YOU REALLY ENJOY THIS SITE AND WISH TO CONTINUE,THEN PLEASE WIGGLE UP TO THE BAR AND BUY A SUBSCRIPTION OR SOME SWAG FROM THE MILNET.CA STORE OR IF YOU WISH TO ADVERTISE PLEASE SEND MIKE SOME DETAILS.

Everybody has a game plan until they get punched in the mouth.

Offline Hamish Seggie

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 206,722
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,527
  • This is my son Michael, KIA Afghanistan 3 Sep 08
Re: Upcoming MacLeans Article - Sexual Assaults in the CF
« Reply #27 on: April 24, 2014, 22:54:53 »
CBC has always taken shots at the military and tends more often to denigrate us. They have never really been onside with us.

They only appear patriotic when it suits them, or it means more revenue. However, if they think the revenues will be higher for demonizing us than praising us, they'll send the pitchfork and torch crowd after us I a heartbeat. They're pretty good at lying until it becomes truth and stretching out perceived bad crap until no one knows what the original initiator was. Flogging a dead horse was perfected at the CBC.

I feel the same way. It was all roses and champagne.....now it's a kick in the nether regions....some thanks eh?

The timing is somewhat suspect....three weeks or so until 9 May. Kinda takes the shine off the National Day of Honour.

While I detest sexual violence of any sort I am left  to wonder if anyone in Canada really "supports the troops".
Freedom Isn't Free   "Never Shall I Fail My Brothers"

“Do everything that is necessary and nothing that is not".

Offline Schindler's Lift

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 18,435
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 799
  • http://goo.gl/1E5Ez0
Re: Upcoming MacLeans Article - Sexual Assaults in the CF
« Reply #28 on: April 24, 2014, 23:14:41 »
I was just about to quote the same comment.  5 a day sounds like total bullshit.

Well, you need to remember that sexual assault can encompass anything from what was called rape years ago to someone being gropped at a mess dinner.  Both incidents are crimes and both are important and troubling matters to the victims and deserve to be thoroughly investigated and prosecuted but I think we can all agree there is a difference in severity.  Statistically however both are considered sexual assault ("any form of unwanted sexual contact" Sec 271 of the Criminal Code and Sec 272 or 273 if a weapon is involved or someone is disfigured) so depending how someone wanted to spin the stats.....

As others have pointed out though, sounds like its open season on the CF again.  When interviewed by CBC the author of the article claims 5 sexual assaults a day in the CF and then casually mentions that figure is a based on Stats Can trends or a "guesstimate".  The other CBC video clips show the loaded questions to CF brass by other reporters jumping into the feeding frenzy and it all takes off after that.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2014, 23:51:58 by Schindler's Lift »

Offline Hatchet Man

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 39,350
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,862
Re: Upcoming MacLeans Article - Sexual Assaults in the CF
« Reply #29 on: April 24, 2014, 23:55:30 »
Well, you need to remember that sexual assault can encompass anything from what was called rape years ago to someone being gropped at a mess dinner.  Both incidents are crimes and both are important and troubling matters to the victims and deserve to be thoroughly investigated and prosecuted but I think we can all agree there is a difference in severity.  Statistically however both are considered sexual assault ("any form of unwanted sexual contact" Sec 271 of the Criminal Code and Sec 272 or 273 if a weapon is involved or someone is disfigured) so depending how someone wanted to spin the stats.....

As others have pointed out though, sounds like its open season on the CF again.

While I don't disagree with you, even still the numbers are suspect.  I honestly believe this has more to do with the major problems that are occuring in the US military, which has torpedoed the careers of several high ranking members.  The war is done, the gloves are off and the CBC want to (attempt to) stick it to the Conservatives (for not giving them more money) by insuating they have a military that is run amok with sexual deviants, and they have shirked their responsibilty to deal with it.

Offline dapaterson

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 352,230
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 14,321
Re: Upcoming MacLeans Article - Sexual Assaults in the CF
« Reply #30 on: April 25, 2014, 00:02:47 »
CBC is reporting what is in l'Actualité, and soon to be in Macleans.  From what I understand, they looked at reported assaults, which average 178 per year.  Certain sources posit that only one in ten assaults is reported.  Therefore, they apply math: if 178 assaults represent one in ten, therefore there are 1780 per year, which comes out to just under five per day.

This posting made in accordance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 2(b):
Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/1.html

Offline Schindler's Lift

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 18,435
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 799
  • http://goo.gl/1E5Ez0
Re: Upcoming MacLeans Article - Sexual Assaults in the CF
« Reply #31 on: April 25, 2014, 00:31:58 »
CBC is reporting what is in l'Actualité, and soon to be in Macleans.  From what I understand, they looked at reported assaults, which average 178 per year.  Certain sources posit that only one in ten assaults is reported.  Therefore, they apply math: if 178 assaults represent one in ten, therefore there are 1780 per year, which comes out to just under five per day.

I have no issue with the accuracy of the 178 since it is verifiable however the rest is conjecture being passed off as fact and it slants the entire article from there.

Offline Rider Pride

  • Mentor
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 29,408
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,815
  • Easy to draw, hard to spell
Re: Upcoming MacLeans Article - Sexual Assaults in the CF
« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2014, 07:23:58 »
However, you would have to rethink MacLeans motives for the article, if straight out of the gate they appear to be sensationalistic about it and inflate their numbers for shock value

It would not be the first time a news source utilized shock value to ensure people would want to read their story.
"Return with your shield, or upon it."

Offline E.R. Campbell

  • Retired, years ago
  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Myth
  • *
  • 451,310
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 18,028
Re: Upcoming MacLeans Article - Sexual Assaults in the CF
« Reply #33 on: April 25, 2014, 07:54:41 »
The Ottawa Citizen is reporting that the Chief of Defence Staff launches review after ‘disturbing’ sex assault allegations. The key to the story is, I think, in the last paragraph: "Sexual assaults in the armed forces have been a high-profile problem in the U.S. In December, President Barack Obama ordered U.S. military leaders to conduct a one-year review of efforts to eliminate sexual assaults in the military."

If there is a problem in the US then it stands to reason that there must be one here .... right?

The Ottawa Citizen article also explains that L’actualité, the magazine actually breaking the story, multiplied the 178 annual average actual complaints by 10 because "experts agree that hundreds of other cases are ignored" and "given that fewer than one in 10 sexual assaults are disclosed to authorities, as estimated by Statistics Canada, that adds up to 1,780 incidents a year in the military, the article concludes, or five per day."

It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concerning Government, (1698)
----------
Like what you see/read here on Army.ca?  Subscribe, and help keep it "on the air!"

Offline milnews.ca

  • Info Curator, Baker & Food Slut
  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Relic
  • *
  • 374,770
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 20,522
    • MILNEWS.ca-Military News for Canadians
Re: Upcoming MacLeans Article - Sexual Assaults in the CF
« Reply #34 on: April 25, 2014, 07:59:10 »
CBC is reporting what is in l'Actualité, and soon to be in Macleans.  From what I understand, they looked at reported assaults, which average 178 per year.  Certain sources posit that only one in ten assaults is reported.  Therefore, they apply math: if 178 assaults represent one in ten, therefore there are 1780 per year, which comes out to just under five per day.
If that's the arithmetic, then the correct lead would have to be "Experts say there may be as many as five sexual assaults a day in the CAF".

Oh wait, not as sensational ....
“Most great military blunders stem from the good intentions of some high-ranking buffoon ...” – George MacDonald Fraser, "The Sheik and the Dustbin"

The words I share here are my own, not those of anyone else or anybody I may be affiliated with.

Tony Prudori
MILNEWS.ca - Twitter

Offline pbi

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 32,680
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,641
Re: Upcoming MacLeans Article - Sexual Assaults in the CF
« Reply #35 on: April 25, 2014, 08:09:22 »
Looking at the comments Mercier makes in the interview extracts, I have a feeling, like ER and others, that this is a conflation of what may be a small (but still serious) issue in the CAF with what is probably a larger (and certainly much noisier) problem in the US.

I'm not sure that it's fair to paint the CBC as "totally anti-military": there has been plenty of good reportage by the CBC of events in Afghanistan and elsewhere. I'll certainly grant that they have their strain of anti-militarists, but it's more likely, as some have suggested, that this is a way of embarassing the current govt which early on wrapped itself in the banner of pro-military sentiment. (We've discussed THAT elsewhere on this ste...)

Macleans can scarcely be called a "left-wing" or anti-military publication if you look objectively at what they've published over the years. Don't forget that it was Macleans who offended the Muslim community in this country with a depiction of Islamic culture a few years ago.

All of that aside, I am very, very skeptical of these figures, and of how they were arrived at. It will be interesting to see. If they are true, then the CAF has slipped, badly and has some housecleaning to do. It sounds like another leadership failure in the making.

If, on the other hand, these figures are BS extrapolations or "guesstimates", which I highly suspect, a false image of the CAF is going to emerge that may clash badly with attempts to maintain public support, including support for wounded veterans.
The Nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools. ...

The true measure of a man is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out...

Offline Colin P

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 93,945
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,356
  • Civilian
    • http://www.pacific.ccg-gcc.gc.ca
Re: Upcoming MacLeans Article - Sexual Assaults in the CF
« Reply #36 on: April 25, 2014, 10:06:03 »
Has anyone seen the definition of sexual assault that they used for this?

Offline Jarnhamar

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 205,701
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,544
Re: Upcoming MacLeans Article - Sexual Assaults in the CF
« Reply #37 on: April 25, 2014, 10:19:21 »
I wonder if the stats of military police investigations   into sexual assault take into account false allegations.

Offline Hamish Seggie

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 206,722
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,527
  • This is my son Michael, KIA Afghanistan 3 Sep 08
Re: Upcoming MacLeans Article - Sexual Assaults in the CF
« Reply #38 on: April 25, 2014, 10:22:21 »
I wonder if the stats of military police investigations   into sexual assault take into account false allegations.
I am not all that confident in anything the Military Police investigate. Sorry if I tick any MPs off here, but the quality of the investigations I've seen are....somewhat mediocre.
Freedom Isn't Free   "Never Shall I Fail My Brothers"

“Do everything that is necessary and nothing that is not".

Offline Nemo888

  • Banned
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • 11,525
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 871
Re: Upcoming MacLeans Article - Sexual Assaults in the CF
« Reply #39 on: April 25, 2014, 11:25:44 »
The MP investigations I have seen have not been ideal. Most have not had enough real crimes to investigate to have sufficient experience. Made worse by the fact that some in uniform still think such behavior is acceptable. The 5 a day undercuts the seriousness of actual rape though. Perhaps we should be a little more vocal with the assholes who talk about degrading and hurting women like it is a sport. Worth thinking about.

Offline George Wallace

  • Army.ca Fossil
  • *****
  • 414,895
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 31,010
  • Crewman
Re: Upcoming MacLeans Article - Sexual Assaults in the CF
« Reply #40 on: April 25, 2014, 11:35:26 »
The MP investigations I have seen have not been ideal. Most have not had enough real crimes to investigate to have sufficient experience. Made worse by the fact that some in uniform still think such behavior is acceptable. The 5 a day undercuts the seriousness of actual rape though. Perhaps we should be a little more vocal with the assholes who talk about degrading and hurting women like it is a sport. Worth thinking about.

FANTASTIC!

You now equate all of these incidents as "rape".  Unfortunately, Sexual Assault constitutes many lesser forms than just "rape".  Some can be as innocent as poor choice of words in a conversation.  Some may even be FALSE claims filed by one person in a vindictive manner against another person.  Nor are all these Sexual Assaults restricted to that being of men against women.  They could be just the opposite; women against men, or perhaps same sex.

Absolutely BRILLIANT post on your part.   :facepalm:
DISCLAIMER: The opinions and arguments of George Wallace posted on this Site are solely those of George Wallace and not the opinion of Army.ca and are posted for information purposes only.

Any postings made by me which are made on behalf of Army.ca will be followed by the statement "George, Milnet.ca Staff".

Unless so stated, they are reflective of my opinion -- and my opinion only, a right that I enjoy along with every other Canadian citizen.

Offline milnews.ca

  • Info Curator, Baker & Food Slut
  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Relic
  • *
  • 374,770
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 20,522
    • MILNEWS.ca-Military News for Canadians
Re: Upcoming MacLeans Article - Sexual Assaults in the CF
« Reply #41 on: April 25, 2014, 11:49:49 »
The Ottawa Citizen is reporting that the Chief of Defence Staff launches review after ‘disturbing’ sex assault allegations ....
It'll be interesting to see:
1)  what conclusions said review reaches;
2)  what will be shared with the public;
3)  what the media take-away will be; and
4)  what the public take-away will be.
Think "inverse pyramid" re:  how much of the original makes it through to media consumers.
“Most great military blunders stem from the good intentions of some high-ranking buffoon ...” – George MacDonald Fraser, "The Sheik and the Dustbin"

The words I share here are my own, not those of anyone else or anybody I may be affiliated with.

Tony Prudori
MILNEWS.ca - Twitter

Offline Lightguns

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 22,755
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 927
  • I live for trout and deer
Re: Upcoming MacLeans Article - Sexual Assaults in the CF
« Reply #42 on: April 25, 2014, 11:57:53 »
I think in the criminal code, sexual assault must involve some form of touching, and is divided into minor sexual assault (touching for a sexual purpose) and major sexual assault (an act of a sexual nature form which permission has not be attained, including penetration, an "attempt to penetrate" as well as anal and oral penetration).  Words spoken are harassment. 

That being said the bases are still very much a sexual hunting grounds for our younger members and alot of behavior is tolerated simply because no one complains and should not be tolerated.  We have a unique workplace in that much of our younger members hang out together in workplace supplied canteens and messes.  Lines are easily crossed and alcohol is flowing freely after duty hours.  Yes, I understand universities but they are dissimilar as the populations of male and female are roughly equal.   
Done, 34 years, 43 days complete, got's me damn pension!

Offline Schindler's Lift

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 18,435
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 799
  • http://goo.gl/1E5Ez0
Re: Upcoming MacLeans Article - Sexual Assaults in the CF
« Reply #43 on: April 25, 2014, 15:16:52 »
I wonder if the stats of military police investigations   into sexual assault take into account false allegations.

Good point.  The incident report is labelled"sexual assault" while the report status indicates if the incident could be substantiated or not or, if someone admits it as a false allegation.  On the surfase though the titles and offence types are all the same.

Offline Eye In The Sky

  • Let me check my Giveashitometer. Nope, nothing.
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 169,110
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,132
    • Airborne Electronic Sensor Operators - AES OP
Re: Upcoming MacLeans Article - Sexual Assaults in the CF
« Reply #44 on: April 25, 2014, 15:35:55 »
I await their study and report into the same issue at Canada's highest ranking universities.  Most reputable hospitals.  School boards from every province.

I don't think they'll stop just at the CAF because it's a good story and easy group to isolate.   ^-^

The only time you have too much gas is when you're on fire.

Offline Hamish Seggie

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 206,722
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,527
  • This is my son Michael, KIA Afghanistan 3 Sep 08
Re: Upcoming MacLeans Article - Sexual Assaults in the CF
« Reply #45 on: April 25, 2014, 15:45:00 »
I await their study and report into the same issue at Canada's highest ranking universities.  Most reputable hospitals.  School boards from every province.

I don't think they'll stop just at the CAF because it's a good story and easy group to isolate.   ^-^

Many of those that are educated at those universities are left wing in nature, and really don't like the idea of an armed force having to protect the nation. The media will probably not poke too far into any university.
It's a very difficult issue to deal with, as there will always be those who think "the military is hiding something" or "these Neanderthals must be reined in.. Knuckledraggers have no place in society" etc....
Freedom Isn't Free   "Never Shall I Fail My Brothers"

“Do everything that is necessary and nothing that is not".

Offline Brihard

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 116,350
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,465
  • Non-Electric Pop-Up Target
Re: Upcoming MacLeans Article - Sexual Assaults in the CF
« Reply #46 on: April 25, 2014, 15:51:21 »
'Sexual assault' as a criminal charge encompasses everything from an unwanted grope, to full out forcible rape. There's no distinction between the two in the criminal code.

'Good' crime data comes from two sources: The Uniform Crime Reports are police generated statistics of every reported criminal offence, whether it can be substantiated or not.  The other good source is victimization surveys compiled by Statistics Canada.

Unfortunately sex assault is simultaneously one of the most under reported AND one of the most falsely reported crimes out there. False reports may happen because a victim (usually female) is acting maliciously with a false allegation, or to 'cover' for (usually drunken) infidelity where they claim they were sexually assaulted in a sort of buyers remorse. Under reporting of sex assault generally comes form people thinking the police won't be able to do anything about it, or out of a desire not to invite disturbance into familial / intimate relationships. A person won't report being sexually assaulted by their spouse for fear of breaking the family up. A victim won't report being sexually assaulted because of fears of mockery or stigma. A victim who was sexually assaulted by a family member (often repeatedly over years) for fear of being disbelieved, or because 'you don't report family' or what have you.

Sex assault is found throughout society, in all institutions. I would hope that Macleans has gone to the effort to compare reported sex assault rates within the CF with reported sex assault rates not just int he population as a whole, but also corrected for demographic.

You get a bunch of people together, sexual assaults will happen, especially with alcohol (something we all know troops are fond of), and an alpha male mindset.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline Hamish Seggie

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 206,722
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,527
  • This is my son Michael, KIA Afghanistan 3 Sep 08
Re: Upcoming MacLeans Article - Sexual Assaults in the CF
« Reply #47 on: April 25, 2014, 15:54:09 »
Thanks Bri

This reminds me of a Sgt who had been tossed in civilian jail for sexual assault.


The story I got from him, which I believe to be true, is that he was having some fun with another guys wife and they got caught. Easier to cry rape I guess.....
Freedom Isn't Free   "Never Shall I Fail My Brothers"

“Do everything that is necessary and nothing that is not".

Offline Eye In The Sky

  • Let me check my Giveashitometer. Nope, nothing.
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 169,110
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,132
    • Airborne Electronic Sensor Operators - AES OP
Re: Upcoming MacLeans Article - Sexual Assaults in the CF
« Reply #48 on: April 25, 2014, 15:59:26 »
I would hope that Macleans has gone to the effort to compare reported sex assault rates within the CF with reported sex assault rates not just int he population as a whole, but also corrected for demographic.

*hope*

Quote
You get a bunch of people together, sexual assaults will happen, especially with alcohol (something we all know troops are fond of), and an alpha male mindset.

Once upon a time, I worked as a bouncer.  The worst 2 kinds of offenders I saw lots of were (1) young male university students and (2) young male hockey players.  I saw more 'misconduct' to ladies from those 2 groups the few years (4-5) I was a bouncer than my entire time (just shy of 25 years) in the CF around army, navy and air force units.

But, it isn't like stuff is happening that is disturbing at, say, universities for example, right? Say, like chants and stuff!!   Certainly not at places like SMU in Halifax!  Oh...wait.  I don't think I've seen CAF members doing chants like this at unit functions. 
« Last Edit: April 25, 2014, 16:06:43 by Eye In The Sky »
The only time you have too much gas is when you're on fire.

Offline Zulu 95

  • New Member
  • **
  • 2,525
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 43
Re: Upcoming MacLeans Article - Sexual Assaults in the CF
« Reply #49 on: April 25, 2014, 16:03:01 »
You're absolute right Bri.

There was a case in my family where my aunt was repeatedly raped at night by her father and no one knew about it until over a year after he died because she was afraid of the stigma and damage to the family that might have been caused by telling any one.
On the other hand I went to school with a girl who claimed to have been sexually assaulted by a teacher until the investigation showed that he had a rock solid alibi so she confessed to making it up to get him fired.
Recruiting Center: Toronto
Officer/NCM: NCM
Reg/ reserves: Reg
Trade Choice 1: Combat Engineer
Trade Choice 2:
Trade Choice 3:
Application date: March 13, 2015
CFAT: May 25, 2015
Interview: July 16, 2015
Medical: July 16, 2015
Swearing in: October 14 2015
BMQ: October 26 2015
Position: Combat Engineer