Author Topic: All Things MATA/PATA (merged)  (Read 79792 times)

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Offline Sparkplugs

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All Things MATA/PATA (merged)
« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2011, 08:10:18 »
Just a quick question here, as this is my first pregnancy and all of this admin is confusing the hell out of me.

With regards to payroll deductions, my clerk here told me that they would all be ceased as soon as I started on maternity/parental leave, so I had to make alternate arrangements to pay everything.  However, when I spoke to the lady at SISIP, she said that there were a ton of people who had SILP loans, or Canex loans, and as long as your pay covered it, they couldn't force you to stop your deductions/allotments.  I know my pay from the military is reduced, as the bulk of your mat/parental leave pay is paid by EI, but I will have more than enough top-up pay still coming through to cover everything I have coming off of there.  Anyway, enough blather, does anyone have any personal experience with this?   Thanks for your info.

Also -- just so you know, 'maternity combats' may well be an oxymoron, but my belly has grown to the point where I've outgrown the fat guy pants from supply, and I have to wear the pants, anyway.  They're some ugly!!!  Not like this is a fashion show, but you'd think they could find a stretchy green fabric instead of making the crotch of the pants black!!  Talk about making people give you funny looks.   ;D
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Offline s_other

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Re: Mat/parental leave and payroll deductions...
« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2011, 19:09:09 »
As long as your military "top up" can cover your allotments and deductions, they can stay on your pay while you're on Mata/Pata.  You have to remember, though, that the top-up is a fluctuating number based on the amount of days in the month.  Since EI will sometimes pay you more, DND will pay you less and vice-versa.  So if you only have a $20-$100 wiggle room between your pay and deductions, the clerk is going to ask you make some adjustments.

Some things (like SISIP loans) must continue to come off your pay.  Canex is a different story, however.  The reason you're asked to find an alternate method for paying a Canex loan is because Canex actually reserves their money a few days before pay drops.  What happens - usually at the end of the leave - is that there will not be enough on your DND pay to cover the Canex loan and will result in a nil payment.

A clerk can't force you to cease your deductions, but when you don't get a paycheque remember they tried to warn you.

Offline Sparkplugs

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Re: Mat/parental leave and payroll deductions...
« Reply #27 on: March 30, 2011, 09:15:37 »
As long as your military "top up" can cover your allotments and deductions, they can stay on your pay while you're on Mata/Pata.  You have to remember, though, that the top-up is a fluctuating number based on the amount of days in the month.  Since EI will sometimes pay you more, DND will pay you less and vice-versa.  So if you only have a $20-$100 wiggle room between your pay and deductions, the clerk is going to ask you make some adjustments.

Some things (like SISIP loans) must continue to come off your pay.  Canex is a different story, however.  The reason you're asked to find an alternate method for paying a Canex loan is because Canex actually reserves their money a few days before pay drops.  What happens - usually at the end of the leave - is that there will not be enough on your DND pay to cover the Canex loan and will result in a nil payment.

A clerk can't force you to cease your deductions, but when you don't get a paycheque remember they tried to warn you.

Thanks for the info -- I don't have a ton of allotments or anything, it's under a hundred bucks per pay, so I'll have plenty to cover it.  I appreciate your answer, cheers!   :)
pilot:  Number 3 engine missing.
tech: Engine found on right wing after brief search.

pilot: Aircraft handles funny.
tech: Aircraft told to straighten up, fly right and be serious

Offline Ditch

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Re: Mat/parental leave and payroll deductions...
« Reply #28 on: March 30, 2011, 20:58:35 »
When you cease your mess dues - an NPF function these days - it will cease everything that you pay to NPF.   I thought this was silly and have refused to give NPF a cheque to cover the CANEX plan - we'll see what happens when I come back to work in June.  NPF hasn't contacted me yet either.
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Offline Sparkplugs

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Re: Mat/parental leave and payroll deductions...
« Reply #29 on: April 01, 2011, 07:36:26 »
When you cease your mess dues - an NPF function these days - it will cease everything that you pay to NPF.   I thought this was silly and have refused to give NPF a cheque to cover the CANEX plan - we'll see what happens when I come back to work in June.  NPF hasn't contacted me yet either.

Well that seems ridiculous.  Why can't they separate everything?

When they ceased mess dues for when I deployed, my Canex plan kept running -- if they want to stop payment on everything, methinks maybe they should start telling people that they can't have a Canex plan if they're going to be on parental, y'know, when you sign up for the plan?  Sheesh.
pilot:  Number 3 engine missing.
tech: Engine found on right wing after brief search.

pilot: Aircraft handles funny.
tech: Aircraft told to straighten up, fly right and be serious

Offline SGT-RMSCLK

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Re: Mat/parental leave and payroll deductions...
« Reply #30 on: April 01, 2011, 13:01:14 »
When you go over seas your banking is stopped, and the pay that you would normally see in the bank on the 15th and 30th is turned into a split allotment.  Normal debits such as your canex plan come out of the monies that are left on your pay account, just like your allowances.  That is why you had cash in theater.

When you go on Mata/Pata your don't get paid.  Period.  You get a top up allowance.  That is why when you get back off of Mata/Pata you have to pay back all that income tax for that period, and buy back your pension etc.

So, I would hazard a guess that if you didn't give NPF a cheque that in Jun you will have a negative balance on your pay guide, and you wont get paid for a while.   I think you should go talk to you Mata/Pata clerk.  This should have been explained to you at the start.

Offline Sparkplugs

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Re: Mat/parental leave and payroll deductions...
« Reply #31 on: April 02, 2011, 19:03:37 »
When you go over seas your banking is stopped, and the pay that you would normally see in the bank on the 15th and 30th is turned into a split allotment.  Normal debits such as your canex plan come out of the monies that are left on your pay account, just like your allowances.  That is why you had cash in theater.

When you go on Mata/Pata your don't get paid.  Period.  You get a top up allowance.  That is why when you get back off of Mata/Pata you have to pay back all that income tax for that period, and buy back your pension etc.

So, I would hazard a guess that if you didn't give NPF a cheque that in Jun you will have a negative balance on your pay guide, and you wont get paid for a while.   I think you should go talk to you Mata/Pata clerk.  This should have been explained to you at the start.

I did speak to my mata/pata clerk when this all began, but I was given some conflicting information, and the last three times I tried to go in there and speak to someone, the clerk's been on leave with no one to replace her, so I thought I would check to see if anyone knew here.  I will talk to NPF before I leave, but I am hoping they'll be able to work out payments with me, hence why I signed up for a payment plan in the first place.  If I could afford to dish out all of that money at once, I would have done that to begin with.  I just think maybe this is something you should be warned about before you sign the canex plan contract.

Thanks for your info.
pilot:  Number 3 engine missing.
tech: Engine found on right wing after brief search.

pilot: Aircraft handles funny.
tech: Aircraft told to straighten up, fly right and be serious

Offline Stevenpfo

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All Things MATA/PATA (merged)
« Reply #32 on: September 13, 2011, 23:37:07 »
Hello all. My wife recently had a baby and we've been looking at myself taking parental leave. I know the time frame and length I can take it it in but had a few other questions.

I receive 93% of my "Weekly" pay. What does this include though? I've read that my pension is not taken off and I repay that after I return to work. I've also heard I loose my field pay as well. Do I keep my PLD?

What is the transition from CF pay to EI like? Is there/can there be a space in between the two where I don't get paid? 

I know I will have to set something up with the Canex for my bill from them. What about my PMQ?

I'm a MCpl who lives in Edmonton who's getting the second level of field pay if that helps at all.

Thanks in advance. I could not find the answers on CF websites or while searching on this site.

Offline Sparkplugs

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Re: Pay while on Parental Leave
« Reply #33 on: September 14, 2011, 01:14:02 »
I can help you with some of this -- not all, but a couple of things.  I just had a baby in July and I'm on mata/pata leave now.

Your pension is not paid while you're on parental, but it will have to be paid off when you get back, so you can have them take double pension payments for a year, or they'll take a lump sum. Don't know anything about field pay or PLD though, sorry...  I'm pulling in a little bit more money than I was before I was on leave -- not paying the pension is great, but I'm putting the extra money away, so when it comes time for them to double up pension payments, I'm not taken short.

The transition is not awesome if you're paycheque to paycheque.  There's a 2 week waiting period with EI where you're not paid at all, then it takes another 2(ish) weeks to get your first payment.  During this time the military gives you a set amount, but it's not much, as they don't want to overpay you.  I think they gave me about $400 a pay for that month.  Once you get your first EI stub, you bring it in and they'll give you any money you're owed, but you're still out that 2 weeks of EI. 

Your Canex bill -- You'd go speak to the people at NPF (non-public funds)and bring a void cheque, and they'll give you a form to fill out, and the payments will come out of your bank account instead of your paycheque.  (They'll come out only once a month though, instead of each payday.)  Your PMQ won't change -- when you go to see the mata/pata clerk, they set up your pay taking into account any prior allotments you have.  You can have allotments on there, the caveat being that your military 'top-up' pay has to be enough to cover them all.

For reference on EI, you'll be receiving $822 every two weeks.  That's the current max EI rate as of last week.  It's not the same pay periods as the military pay, necessarily, as you get it every two weeks, which sometimes works out to three times a month, and the military pay still comes on the 15th and last day of the month.

Hopefully that helps...  Oh, one other thing.  EI doesn't tax you enough for your EI payments, so the orderly room should ask you if you want to pay extra taxes each month.  I recommend that you do it, unless you're okay with having to pay a lump sum at tax time.  I think I have them taking an extra $200 a month, and that should cover it.  I know a friend of mine didn't get the extra taxes taken off, and she had to pay a couple thousand bucks come tax season.

Anyway, any other questions, feel free to ask.  I'm a spec1 Cpl, so our pay scales aren't the same, and I don't get field pay, but the EI stuff is the same.  PM me if you like.  Good luck, and congrats on the little one!

Hello all. My wife recently had a baby and we've been looking at myself taking parental leave. I know the time frame and length I can take it it in but had a few other questions.

I receive 93% of my "Weekly" pay. What does this include though? I've read that my pension is not taken off and I repay that after I return to work. I've also heard I loose my field pay as well. Do I keep my PLD?

What is the transition from CF pay to EI like? Is there/can there be a space in between the two where I don't get paid? 

I know I will have to set something up with the Canex for my bill from them. What about my PMQ?

I'm a MCpl who lives in Edmonton who's getting the second level of field pay if that helps at all.

Thanks in advance. I could not find the answers on CF websites or while searching on this site.
pilot:  Number 3 engine missing.
tech: Engine found on right wing after brief search.

pilot: Aircraft handles funny.
tech: Aircraft told to straighten up, fly right and be serious

Offline s_other

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Re: Pay while on Parental Leave
« Reply #34 on: September 14, 2011, 19:21:46 »
Stevenpfo did a good job.  I'll just fill in the blanks.

Your LDA (field pay) will cease.  Your PLD will not.

The pension part is a bit scrambled there.  Stevenpfo is correct in stating that your pension contribution is not taken off your pay while on Parental leave, and that when you return you need to pay it back.  You can choose to take it off in one lump sum (your Mata/Pata clerk won't have a firm number for you until you return from leave, but for your rank and pay level I'd estimate at $300 for every month), or the pay system will automatically take off the monthly amount for every month you take off.  So if you take five months of Parental leave, the pay system will deduct that extra $300 for the next five months when you return to work.

A few things are affected on your pay: LDA (already discussed), pension (already discussed), taxes (I'll explain it in one second), and allotments (Canex, etc).  As was previously stated, you'll need to visit NPF to set up a different way for them to collect your Canex plan payments.  Everything else (PMQ, other allotments as long as they don't exceed your new monthly pay, etc.) remains the same.

Stevenpro made an excellent point on taxes.  While on Parental leave, you're not taxed at a high enough rate relevant to your salary.  So what happens is when you do your taxes in April, CRA is going to ding you a fair amount.  Listen to your clerk when they offer to take off extra taxes - it'll save you a world of frustration come April.

We have a pretty good system in place for working out member's pay when they go on Mata/Pata; we're not going to overpay you.  The EI transition and pay is dependent on several factors.  If you have never claimed EI before - and your wife is not claiming it for the same child - you will be subject to a two-week waiting period where EI will give you nothing.  For those two weeks, the military will pay you 93% of your salary.  If you have claimed EI before - or your wife is claiming it as well for that child - you are not subject to the two-week waiting period and you immediately receive that percentage of your pay the CF will pay out (I couldn't even guess at a number because I don't know how much your PMQ is or any other allotments). 

It does take a long time for EI to get rolling.  From the date you apply for EI (your first date of LWOP, not a single day before) we advise members to give it 4-8 weeks.  Mine personally took six weeks, and I was a Pte (2nd incentive) at Christmas time.  My best advice to you is that if you are a paycheque-to-paycheque member, try and have an extra $1000-$1500 saved up to save you some grief until EI kicks in.  EI will back pay you to your first eligible date, but once again, you actually have to wait for them to process your claim.
 
If you need anything in there clarified, just let me know.

Offline Sparkplugs

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Re: Pay while on Parental Leave
« Reply #35 on: September 14, 2011, 23:27:56 »
Sorry about the pension thing -- me being a female, and taking maternity as well as parental leave, gives me an entire year off, hence why I'll have to pay double pension for a year when I go back... 

And as far as how long you actually have to wait for EI, mine took just shy of 4 weeks, that was just over two months ago, so fairly recent.  But yeah, it can take anywhere from 3-8 weeks, depending on the demand and manpower of the EI system.  Best to have money put away, if at all possible.
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Offline lauralaner

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All Things MATA/PATA (merged)
« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2011, 14:01:24 »
I've searched and haven't found anything particularly relevant (besides a few inconspicuous mentionings)

I am due to return to work and I have spoken with my Superintendent Clerk.  He had stated that I am due for my early promotion upon my return.  A few weeks pass and I was speaking to another clerk that the Chief Clerk has denied said promotion due to the fact that I have been on Maternity/Parental for the last 12 months.  The logic was stated that my LWOP does not count towards any promotional time in.  However, I had previously understood that I was not to be "penalized" for my time away.  As small background information, I have been in for nearly 4 years.  I am viewed as strong in my field and had the pregnancy not happened I would have been granted the early promotion.  Even if I'm not granted the early promotion, they are trying to even delay my 4 year Cpl promotion due to the LWOP for maternity/parental.


I do know that CFAO 49-4, 24 states:
"24. LWOP granted on enrolment shall not count as qualifying time for promotion. Effective 1 Jun 86, all other LWOP of 120 days duration or less shall count for promotion. LWOP of a duration of greater than 120 days may count as qualifying service in total or in part as specified by the approving authority of the leave. When a promotion instruction contains the name of a member who is on LWOP, the CO shall advise NDHQ/DPCAOR of the circumstances including commencement and termination dates. NDHQ/DPCAOR will advise the CO whether the promotion will stand, will be cancelled, or will be deferred."

Also, bearing in mind that I have no idea where I got this from, though I have a hint that it was a printout from 1 December 2009, a publication that supersedes Chapter 17 of A-PM-245...
(It is a printout among my military references)
The print out states that "having met all prerequisites for promotion, may be promoted", it carries on saying that the medical category I was on is irrelevant (due to being physically fit prior to pregnancy).  It also states under "Promotions and Pay Incentives" that "1787. A promotion affecting pay and allowances or a pay incentive awarded while the CF mbr is on maternity or parental lve will affect the calculation of EI or QPIP benefits and MATA and/of PATA. The mbr's URS is responsible to action any promotions and/or incentive awards in HRMS, except that for:
a. Ref F mbrs, HRMS will trigger pay and CCPS will automatically calculate any changes to a rate of pay and re-calculate all allowances.  The responsibility of generating an amended ROE remains with the mbr's URS;" and (b) which is Res F (not applicable)

Though I interpret this as if the promotion took place, or pay incentive increase, during the LWOP which would affect the EI benefits, as well as the calculations for the Allowances.  Nothing stated affects that the time in is directly influenced by the maternity/parental leave.

I acknowledge that I am receipt of allowances when I return to work, (LDA) which the leave will affect the LDA points calculation, I have not seen anything that this would affect any further or immediate promotion opportunities. 

Would anyone have any additional information regarding this?  Thank you greatly in advance.

Offline PuckChaser

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Re: Maternity/Parental Promotion upon return
« Reply #37 on: December 11, 2011, 14:28:54 »
Early promotion is not a right, its a privilege. One of my Cpls was kept from being advance promoted because we didn't think he was ready. I do not believe they can hold you from your Cpls if you have the requisite 60 months in service, as MATA/PATA is not supposed to delay promotion.

Is there not a CFAO directly related to MATA/PATA leave? It may have the clarifications you require.

Offline lauralaner

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Re: Maternity/Parental Promotion upon return
« Reply #38 on: December 11, 2011, 19:30:09 »
I do understand that early promotion is a privilege, however wouldn't it be counter-intuitive that I was in line to receive my early promotion due to good performance and that now that I should not receive it would be that my time off while having a baby would be a negative consequence of that? Though personally I do not mind, I'm happy to get back to work, regardless of promotion or not.
The point I'm getting at is that they are saying that I will not hit the requisite 60 months of service, because it is as though my entire 12 months does not count.  So once I hit the actual 60 months, it would only be 48 months. 

I did check the CFAO's and there isn't any regulation that clearly states the correlation between LWOP and promotion in regards to Mata/Pata.  I do believe that there my have been a Canforgen regarding this but at the moment I don't have access.

Thanks for your reply, I will double check the CFAO's in case I missed something.

Offline airmich

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Re: Maternity/Parental Promotion upon return
« Reply #39 on: December 11, 2011, 21:33:11 »
Here is the DAOD for Maternity/Parental Leave.  It has a bunch of references at the end of it that may help you in your search too.

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/dao-doa/5000/5001-2-eng.asp
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Offline CountDC

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Re: Maternity/Parental Promotion upon return
« Reply #40 on: December 12, 2011, 15:05:16 »
have you talked to your clerk?  Just so you know the pata/mata leave does not delay your promotion otherwise I would be screwed (3 pata periods in 6 years and 2 promotions). The time still counts as time served for promotions and thankfully pensions (which you will have to make the payments when you return to work).   Don't have the time right now to search for the regs.  You are not supposed to be punished for having a child.
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Online MJP

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Re: Maternity/Parental Promotion upon return
« Reply #41 on: December 12, 2011, 15:18:54 »
Just so you know the pata/mata leave does not delay your promotion otherwise I would be screwed (3 pata periods in 6 years and 2 promotions). The time still counts as time served for promotions and thankfully pensions (which you will have to make the payments when you return to work).   Don't have the time right now to search for the regs.  You are not supposed to be punished for having a child.

Agreed on the the time still counting and not holding back a promotion when it is due.  Being accelerated though is not protected and is entirely up to the CoC regardless of how counter intuitive it may be to the OP.

 For the OP, I wouldn't hold my breathe for the promotion but just go back to the high standard of work that you had before.  That speaks volumes of a soldier and  the promotion will come.  Hopefully if you are one of the good ones, sooner rather later. (Don't read too much into it, I am not insinuating that you aren't a good one.  I just think hard work should be rewarded)
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Offline Greenmachine2517

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Parental Leave, Promotion & Retroactive Pay
« Reply #42 on: July 26, 2012, 16:09:59 »
I am trying to get some straight answers from my orderly room, but it feels as if I'm getting the run-around... I went on parental leave in August 2011 and as of Sept 2011, I hit my 4yrs in and was eligible for my Cpls. I came back to work in May 2012 and received my promotion in June. I have received my pay statement for End July and was retro paid for June and July, however, I am being told that because I took parental leave, I am not due for the retro pay as of Sept.

Normally, this wouldn't be an issue, however... I have a female friend who joined the same day as me and we did BMQ together. She took parental leave for the same time frame as I did (Aug to May). She just got her retro pay dated as of Sept 2011, resulting in a VERY large pay difference.

My unit is telling me that my retro pay is only to the 1st of June... Why would that be??? And if she were to bring a copy of her MPRR with her to my orderly room with me so they can see her promotion effective date, should they not be required to make that change on mine?

Thanks for any help on this!



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Re: Parental Leave, Promotion & Retroactive Pay
« Reply #43 on: July 26, 2012, 16:17:39 »
And if she were to bring a copy of her MPRR with her to my orderly room with me so they can see her promotion effective date, should they not be required to make that change on mine?

Have you considered that you're friend's case might be the one who was done wrong, not you.

I would find out the regulations before i drag your friend in.

Offline Greenmachine2517

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Re: Parental Leave, Promotion & Retroactive Pay
« Reply #44 on: July 26, 2012, 16:21:02 »
Yes, I have considered that. That would be a very last resort. I mainly want to see in some form of written documentation as to where they came up with the information.

Offline PuckChaser

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Re: Parental Leave, Promotion & Retroactive Pay
« Reply #45 on: July 26, 2012, 16:29:59 »
Sounds like your promotion effective date was labelled as 1 Jun 12, which is what your unit backdated you to. Could be an issue with the paperwork not being completed properly, or the career manager setting the wrong effective date.

"But s/he got this, why can't I?" normally doesn't work in any OR I've seen...

Offline Greenmachine2517

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Re: Parental Leave, Promotion & Retroactive Pay
« Reply #46 on: July 26, 2012, 16:39:23 »
I'm aware that the "But s/he got this, why can't I?" deal doesn't really hold up well...

I just came across this bit of info from CBI Chapter 204 - PAY OF OFFICERS AND NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS, that may be appropriate to my situation:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
204.015(4) (Exception) Qualifying service for pay increments does not include:

any service prior to a continuous interruption of more than five years during which no service designated in paragraph (2) was performed, unless the member during the period of the interruption has maintained relevant skills or qualifications considered by the Chief of the Defence Staff, or any officer designated by the Chief of the Defence Staff, to be of military value;
any service that is not declared on enrolment;
any service prior to the date of a promotion to a higher substantive rank, other than a period of continuous service in an acting rank at the end of which the officer or non-commissioned member is promoted to the same substantive rank; or

(TB, effective 22 June 2006)
any period of forfeiture imposed under QR&O 208.30 (Forfeitures - Officers and Non-Commissioned Members) or QR&O 208.31 (Forfeitures, Deductions and Cancellations - When No Service Rendered), or leave without pay other than a period granted under QR&O 16.26 (Maternity Leave) or QR&O 16.27 (Parental Leave).


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
With this last paragraph and the part which states "other than", I believe this is the proper document for them to make the required change.

Anyone believe otherwise?

Online MJP

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Re: Parental Leave, Promotion & Retroactive Pay
« Reply #47 on: July 26, 2012, 16:48:31 »
In addition to the CBI you pulled up, you need to read;

DAOD 5001-2, Maternity and Parental Benefits;

(QR&Os) Volume I - Chapter 16: Leave; and

A-PP-005-LVE/AG-00, Canadian Forces Leave Policy Manual.

Then decide if you have a case.  Other people's experiences is, as other have pointed out not valid.  What the Regs say is.  Dig in bud, do some reading and feel free to ask any clarifying questions you have. 
Hope is not a valid COA

Offline Greenmachine2517

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Re: Parental Leave, Promotion & Retroactive Pay
« Reply #48 on: July 26, 2012, 17:09:41 »
Thank you for the links!  :)

Any idea if there is any 1 type of documentation (ie. CFAO, DAOD, QR&O or CBI) which over-rules another? Meaning if I take in my copy of CBI Chapter 204 and try to show them section 204.015(4) (see prev post), are they going to come back at me with something that "trumps" it?

aesop081

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Re: Parental Leave, Promotion & Retroactive Pay
« Reply #49 on: July 26, 2012, 17:11:54 »
Thank you for the links!  :)

Any idea if there is any 1 type of documentation (ie. CFAO, DAOD, QR&O or CBI) which over-rules another? Meaning if I take in my copy of CBI Chapter 204 and try to show them section 204.015(4) (see prev post), are they going to come back at me with something that "trumps" it?

CBI 204.015 is about pay increments. You are asking about parental and a promotion.

See the problem here ?