Author Topic: Reserve Pension- Merged  (Read 383501 times)

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Offline recceguy

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Re: Reserve Pension- Merged
« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2005, 11:38:27 »
I agree. Until the Reserve Pension plan criteria is release by the Treasury Board, we're just spinning our wheels with all this talk about buy backs, etc. Forwarned is forearmed, but I'm not making any plans until I see theirs. And with the way it's been stalled my expectaions are not great. ::)
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Offline turretmonster

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Re: Reserve Pension- Merged
« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2005, 12:47:24 »
My expectations are actually pretty good for the P Res.

If this turns into another combat bra fiasco, it won't be solved by giving each P Res 125 bucks to go buy their own.

However since this is an emotional issue near and dear to 16000 mbrs out there, they had better make this pension work or be prepared for the resulting fall out. Given the dependance of the whole trg system on the P Res, failure really isn't an option.

I'd just like the website that is suppose to feed the info updated since it's sat idle since May 03 and some real life sceanrios that fit the working stiff who plays army thursday night and the odd weekend added. The ones there now mean nothing to 95% of mbrs.

TB

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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Reserve Pension- Merged
« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2005, 06:23:17 »
Now you have touched on another sore point.  Now many on Class A parade one night a week and the odd weekend, but in my day we paraded two nights a week and every weekend, all considered 1/4 time.  It seems we paraded two to three times the amount that many parade today for equal credit.  No equality there, that is why I would like to have the T-4 amounts that reflected Pay included.  Why would a person who paraded once or twice a year be given the same credit as someone who paraded on a regular basis?  This is a problem with the implementation of any system.  Your idea of a 'Flat Fee' for all may be the simplest solution.  If one wants to buy a pension, one can; if one doesn't then they don't.....simple.
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Offline Spr.Earl

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Re: Reserve Pension- Merged
« Reply #28 on: March 22, 2005, 00:40:09 »
It is still scheduled for implementation in December of this year. From what I understand, Treasury Board has accepted that it go back as far as, I think, 1985 but the pension staff are going to ask that it go back further to include the 1322 members that the 1985 cut off year discludes. I also heard that if you want to buy back time, it will cost $3000 for 1 years worth of service. They are also looking at turning the gratuity into a severance package. That's all I know so far.
Thank's NMP,you mean that there is only 1,322 of us that pre date the 85 cut off?
When I went over seas my pay was judged by my time in,in 95 it was Cpl 4 and that was what I was paid at.
Re the Gratuity as a "gratuity into a severance package." can you elaborate please?

Oh NMP can I transfer my pension to my wife when I die?

Thanks for you help.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2005, 00:48:39 by Spr.Earl »
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Offline Gunner

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Re: Reserve Pension- Merged
« Reply #29 on: March 22, 2005, 14:06:33 »
All Reservists should view the attached link that discussion what the Reserve Pension Plan will look like.  It also outlines changes to the Regular Force Pension plan in case you have not been briefed by your units.

http://www.regions.cadets.ca/pac/support/pdf/PMP%20Oct%2004_e.pdf

Note specifically the examples of Reservists serving at implementation.

For Spr Earl - What NMPeters was indicating was the Reserve Retirement Gratuity (3.5 days pay per year of service if you have between 10-20 years and 7 days pay per year of service if you have between 20-35 years) will be retermed a severance package vice retirement gratuity.  Regular Force members receive a similar severance package when they retire.  Your pension will be dependent on how much time you serve, how much you work (1 for 1 days for Cl B and C service, and 1/4 days for Cl A time).  I have no doubt that normal pension regulations will dictate that your wife will receive survivors benefits.

We are waiting to hear how the Reserve plan will be implemented, etc.  We have come a long way from when I joined....
Had a wonderful ~26 years in the military and still miss it.

Offline Otto Fest

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Re: Reserve Pension- Merged
« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2005, 21:07:54 »
I found out recently that class BC time only counts as full time service if it's over 90 days.  Out of 8 years working 70 or 80 days during the summer, I only get credit for 180 days of that time.  Kind of burns my a**, as I'll be retiring from the RegF in 5 years.  I'm losing over a year of pensionable service and no one had the knowledge or guts to tell me.

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Re: Reserve Pension- Merged
« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2005, 22:34:07 »
WOG (Worn out Grunt - always wondered what WOG stood for  ;))

Do you have any type of reference?  As I mentioned previously, I had always heard that Cl A was counted at 1/4 time but Cl B and C were counted 1 for 1.

Cheers
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Offline Otto Fest

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Re: Reserve Pension- Merged
« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2005, 23:55:35 »
Respectfully, please wait out while I post a source.  I discovered this not long ago, thought I had more time.  I kept sending copies of my UER to Ottawa, and they said 90 days are required....
LOL 2 mos RCR counted as 0.  Gotta lov it.
2 Mos Airbourne counted as 0.  Gotta lov it.

But I'm not bitter.

When the new system is in place they had better look ahead.
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Offline turretmonster

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Re: Reserve Pension- Merged
« Reply #33 on: March 24, 2005, 08:19:50 »
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Offline bossi

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Re: Reserve Pension- Merged
« Reply #34 on: March 27, 2005, 17:37:34 »
Well ... ya know ... personally, I'm not gonna hold my breath ... seeing as how this poor guy fought in WWII ... and is still getting the runaround ...
(and, as an aside, it's infuriating if one individual with an axe to grind was able to screw this guy ...)

Sun, March 27, 2005
Genuine hero still fighting
Pension now up to the defence minister
By Peter Worthington
http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/Toronto/Peter_Worthington/2005/03/27/pf-973540.html

Readers of this column will remember the saga of Cliff Wenzel, who was denied a reduced military pension because it was "not in the public interest" that he transfer from active service in the Royal Canadian Air Force to the RCAF reserve.

This was in 1960, when Wenzel had spent 14 of his 20 years of service as a flight lieutenant, and felt his career was going nowhere.

In the RCAF reserve, he taught pilots to fly for another 10 years, until mandatory retirement. It was only relatively recently, under Access to Information legislation, that he discovered he was virtually the only officer denied a reduced pension because it was "not in the public interest."

Thus began his campaign to get the reduced pension re-instated.

What makes his case different is that Wenzel was a genuine hero and something of a legend in the RCAF. He earned a Distinguished Flying Cross in bomber command in World War II; an Air Force Cross flying in the Berlin Airlift; he flew against Communist insurgents in Malaya; and flew in the Korean war.

Four wars on behalf of Canada, yet switching to RCAF reserve was "not in the public interest."

Other officers got reduced pensions when they left the RCAF to go to school, work for government, or become lawyers or teachers. But not Wenzel.

Wenzel's lawyer, retired Col. Michel Drapeau, took his case to court, but the court declined to hear it because it was "out of time." So Wenzel appealed to a succession of defence ministers, (Bill Graham is now reviewing the case) and to various MPs and Veterans Affairs Canada.

Opposition leader Stephen Harper has responded "to the unfair and unjust treatment you have received from the government of Canada" and unleashed the Conservative defence critic, Gordon O'Connor, to present Wenzel's case to the Standing Committee on Defence in hopes that the government "will recognize your service and sacrifice to this country and give you what you so greatly deserve."

Liberal MP Pat O'Brien, Chair of the Standing Committee, has written Graham supporting Wenzel's case. When it was brought forward to the committee, however, MP Keith Martin (who ran for the leadership of the Canadian Alliance before switching to the Liberals, where he is parliamentary secretary to Bill Graham) opposed restoring Wenzel's reduced pension.

"It was brought to court and the court said he didn't have a case," Martin said.

In fact, the court said no such thing -- it said it would not hear the case because of the time lapse.

When Martin insisted the "letter of the law" be followed (hence the minister's review), chairman O'Brien insisted that the "spirit of the law" be fairly applied in Wenzel's case.

Conservative defence critic Gordon O'Connor argued on the principle involved and noted that when he left the RCAF, Wenzel immediately went into the air reserve and helped organize it and train a generation of pilots -- "which was certainly in the interests of the military."

But not, apparently, in the public interest.

What the Wenzel case indicates is that one RCAF personnel officer in 1960 resented Wenzel and had it in for him -- and this prejudice has been echoed ever since.

To let the injustice stand is a slap at every serving military person. One hopes Graham works out a compromise with Cliff Wenzel, and rights the wrong that was done him so long ago.

While to some this may seem a forlorn hope, I'd disagree -- especially in 2005, officially designated as the Year of Veteran.

There's much about Bill Graham that can be disputed, but he's always seemed a fair man who, if given the chance, makes up his own mind on the facts presented.

And that's all that Cliff Wenzel asks for.
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Offline Spr.Earl

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Re: Reserve Pension- Merged
« Reply #35 on: March 30, 2005, 22:43:19 »
Thank's Bossi :cdn: :salute:

As to the 1300 + I'm one of them I know a quite few who go back to 73,74, and there are those who joined in the late seventies.
All those I know and including myself used to be Professional Militia Plug's in our youth and are still proud to serve in our chosen disciplines with in our Forces   :cdn: :salute:

If they have a cut off date I think we the few "The Old Guard   ;) ;D" so to speak should get some credit for pre 85.

As to how they judge service is it paid day's?,Date of enlistment?
The buy back I think it's fare as my own Provincial Plan charges $3,500 per year!

All's you have to do is take out a lone and pay for your years and it's a tax deduction !
It's the same as a RSP but under Pension Contributions which are Tax Decutible and you recieve it under the Pension Tax vs RSP Tax on retirement!
Also if this falls under reguler Tax laws you can also transfer RRSP funds over with out penelty to buy your years back plus it's a indexed Pension and Guranteed  ;)

« Last Edit: March 30, 2005, 22:48:00 by Spr.Earl »
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Offline bossi

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Re: Reserve Pension- Merged
« Reply #36 on: April 01, 2005, 01:22:57 »
Personally, I feel it will be impossible for them to enforce their brainfart "cutoff" date.  Why?
Well, if somebody does a Component Transfer from Reserve to Reg Force, there's no cutoff date ...

And, if the argument is that they don't have accurate pay records ... we all know Revenue Canada can supply us with T4 slips dating back to Confederation ...

Thus, I'd even go one step further:  Keeping in mind the formula for full-time members is a percentage of their pay, then it should be possible to calculate this same percentage on previous fulltime reserve service
(i.e. presently they're suggesting members would buy back their time, but at their present rank ... which may be prohibitively expensive if somebody has had a couple of promotions during 20 years of service ...)

And, also keeping in mind that it's not as if they invest our pension contributions, and therefore they need to recover compounded interest, too ... it could prove to be much simpler in the end to have calculations similar to those found on income tax returns (i.e. a percentage, with minimums/maximums)

Otherwise, the administrative burden resulting from overly complex formulae could result in serious, even unreasonable workloads/delays ...

But, what do I know about mathematics ... ?
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Offline recceguy

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Re: Reserve Pension- Merged
« Reply #37 on: April 01, 2005, 02:30:37 »
Mark,

If I'm reading you right, I agree. I should be able to buy back my time based on my wage at the time.
ie: approx $7.50 a day (yes, your reading it right) cause lunch was supplied. Normally some sort of mystery stew that you peeled the potatoes and carrots for yourself (and the rest of the Regiment)  ;)
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Reserve Pension- Merged
« Reply #38 on: April 01, 2005, 08:51:48 »
And, if the argument is that they don't have accurate pay records ... we all know Revenue Canada can supply us with T4 slips dating back to Confederation ...

I was thinking along those lines earlier here.

(i.e. presently they're suggesting members would buy back their time, but at their present rank ... which may be prohibitively expensive if somebody has had a couple of promotions during 20 years of service ...)

Unfortunately for those who have gone on ahead, (Dave and I are a couple such cases), they have had to pay back in this manner.  To change it now would be very cost prohibitive, if earlier contributers petition for the same rights as you propose.  If a person was a Warrant under this (old) system and bought back his time at his current pay rate, how much would the Gov't have to refund him for overpayments, as he should pay only at a Pte rate under your new scheme?  That would seriously complicate the funding formulas and cause much consternation to the Pay Gods.
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Offline bossi

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Re: Reserve Pension- Merged
« Reply #39 on: April 01, 2005, 12:20:24 »
... Unfortunately for those who have gone on ahead, (Dave and I are a couple such cases), they have had to pay back in this manner.   To change it now would be very cost prohibitive, if earlier contributers petition for the same rights as you propose.   If a person was a Warrant under this (old) system and bought back his time at his current pay rate, how much would the Gov't have to refund him for overpayments, as he should pay only at a Pte rate under your new scheme?   That would seriously complicate the funding formulas and cause much consternation to the Pay Gods.

You're absolutely right - Dave's post brought it home - contributions made using Roman pecunia would have to be translated into modern day loonies ... and so, without going through intricate gyrations vis-a-vis actually translating/converting earlier contributions into present day values ... I guess the simplistic solution isn't the worst in the world.  Oh, well ... guess I'll have to scrape together some extra cash (... sigh ... and my days as a potential male escort service are long past ... so I guess I'll have to sell a kidney or something ... thank goodness I haven't worn them out ... like some people we know ... chuckle!)
Junior officers and NCOs who neglect to guide the thinking of their men are shirking a command responsibility.
-Feb 1955 Cbt Forces Journal
Those who appreciate true valour should in their daily intercourse set gentleness first and aim to win the love and esteem of others. If you affect valour and act with violence, the world will in the end detest you and look upon you as wild beasts. Of this you should take heed.
-Emperor Meiji: Rescript to Soldiers and Sailors, 4 January 1883

Offline Spr.Earl

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Re: Reserve Pension- Merged
« Reply #40 on: April 17, 2005, 22:28:59 »
Mark,

If I'm reading you right, I agree. I should be able to buy back my time based on my wage at the time.
ie: approx $7.50 a day (yes, your reading it right) cause lunch was supplied. Normally some sort of mystery stew that you peeled the potatoes and carrots for yourself (and the rest of the Regiment)   ;)
As I read it you will buy back your time at the "Current Rate" ?
As I asked is it T.I. or paid day's?

 When I went to Bosnia the Army looked at my Trade, course's and time in before I received  my pay in relation to reg Force pay and  was Cpl Lvl 4  rate  I'm entitled to buy back the same and this going back
to 95 to 97 were I spent close on 2 years with 1 CER. on class C. (reg force)

I read the buy back time at the current Pension Plan Pay
I'm game and just waiting for the particulars to be promulgated, as I'm one of the few left but if they have a cut off date I know there will be some Court Action !!
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Re: Reserve Pension- Merged
« Reply #41 on: May 09, 2005, 09:18:15 »
I feel we should keep this subject current and in this thread. I am one of the 1300 who predates the 1981/85 cut off, and of course will want to buy back all my time. A previous thread about the Domestic Ops medal/bar talked about the Cold War warriors. I was one, and in Germany on a flyover with 2PPCLI in Aug 1968 when the Russians marched into Czech Republic. It was thought at that time, war was a possibility.
 Consider that the public servants that are doing the negotiating with DND have their pension, the public servants who must put the rules and regulations in place for implementation, have their pension. How much longer is this going to drag on?  It took 27 1/2 years to bring the Reserve pay from an average of 65% to 85% of Regular Force pay as well as harmonizing pay incentives from a maximum of 2 for all ranks.
Consider Adscam. The money waste there would pay for the Reserve Pension. HRDC, Gun Registry, and on. What about the foundations with billions of dollars that are not accountable to parliament, and out of reach of the Auditor General.
Bombardier Inc - How much funding goes to this Liberal company? They call the Export Development Corporation Bombardier Credit. Paul Tellier, former head of CNR, was recently fired by Bombardier. Hired by Bombardier in early 2003, he is getting a one time severance of $3.84 million. A $2 million payment under the company's midterm incentive plan, plus a yearly pension of $360,000. After less than 2 years!!!. And that's not the only public pension he is collecting!! Think of that. Bombardier is again negotiating financial assistance from Ottawa. It already owes $1 billion, plus funding from EDC.
It makes the Reserve Pension very small potatoes. I have a Redress of Grievance signed by the CDS (3 or 4 CDS's ago) stated that Reserves should have a pension, and it is one of his priorities. Some priority.
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Re: Reserve Pension- Merged
« Reply #42 on: May 18, 2005, 22:21:44 »
I was shown a new presentation (Apr 05) today that actually provides some numbers for different career paths for Reservists. I'll see if I can post them as .jpgs tomorrow.  The RFRG will probably be phased out and a new severance package would be phased in.  It would be similar to the Reg's severance package but would be prorated according to how much you work duirng the year (which is a constraint not currently utilized by the RFRG).  Unfortunately it does not discuss how the buy back will work. 

If you want the entire presenation, just PM me with your email address.

Cheers,
Had a wonderful ~26 years in the military and still miss it.

Offline turretmonster

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Re: Reserve Pension- Merged
« Reply #43 on: May 19, 2005, 11:51:04 »
Ummm perhaps its just me, but isn't there a really big problem with phasing out the CFRG  ( gratuity ) in favor of a severance package based on actual days worked?

TM
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Re: Reserve Pension- Merged
« Reply #44 on: May 19, 2005, 16:23:40 »
Some of the key parts of the presentation that I haven't seen before.
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Re: Reserve Pension- Merged
« Reply #45 on: May 19, 2005, 16:26:01 »
Some different scenarios.  Make sure you know the difference between the full and part time plan.
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Re: Reserve Pension- Merged
« Reply #46 on: May 19, 2005, 16:26:57 »
Last 2.
Had a wonderful ~26 years in the military and still miss it.

Offline turretmonster

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Re: Reserve Pension- Merged
« Reply #47 on: May 19, 2005, 18:02:23 »
Thanks, do you know what CIF means?
I'm looking at the 49 yr old WO and what he would get. These amounts are after he paid back all his former service at a set rate?
I'm also confused about the taxable income part for the transfer from pension plan. The text is small and the eyes are old.
TM
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Re: Reserve Pension- Merged
« Reply #48 on: May 19, 2005, 18:29:02 »
CIF = Coming into force.

Remember that everyone will be an individual when it comes to implmenting this so take what I have posted with a grain of salt.  The three notes under each slide states:

1.  A member needs at least 10 years of service at release to be eligible to the RFRG.
2.  A member needs at least 10 years of service at release to be eligible to the proposed severance plan.
3.  Estimated transfer value payable from the Reserve Force pension plan calculated using methods and assumptions applicable in May 2005. Since the transfer values shown exceed the maximum allowed under the Income Tax Act, a portion of the values would be paid in cash and be treated as taxable income.

I'm not an expert but I believe the transfer values relates to the commuted value of your pension should you wish to transfer it to your RRSP.  You may want to google transfer value and Income Tax Act for further info.




Had a wonderful ~26 years in the military and still miss it.

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Re: Reserve Pension- Merged
« Reply #49 on: May 26, 2005, 03:58:34 »
Thanks Gunner,I emailed you to ask for the presentation.

I can't understand why this info has not been past on.
I know a few who are pre 80 and are also wondering what is happening with the pension but we have heard nothing but only rumour and speculation.

Thanks again.

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UBIQUE
Be Safe