Author Topic: The Poppy Selling Superthread- Merged  (Read 160857 times)

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Offline Bane

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Re: The Poppy Selling Superthread- Merged
« Reply #50 on: October 31, 2007, 09:37:29 »
The poppy has become institutionalized.  It's the thoughts and the memories, the learning and the teaching, that counts.
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Offline geo

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Re: The Poppy Selling Superthread- Merged
« Reply #51 on: October 31, 2007, 11:05:53 »
Between Oct 28th and Nov 11th, I'd like to see the Poppy "EVERYWHERE".

For, as they say, "LEST WE FORGET".... (as the Legion appears to have forgotten)
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Offline Hawk

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Re: The Poppy Selling Superthread- Merged
« Reply #52 on: October 31, 2007, 11:25:56 »
Well, that sure gives me second thoughts about putting on a poppy. Maybe I'll just wear a yellow ribbon instead. Or maybe I just need another coffee.

My Dad, a Vet. insisted every year that we, and his grand children after us, wore a poppy. I don't think he'd have been pleased. Incidently, he was Past President of ANAF, and wouldn't join Legion.

 :cdn:
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Offline JBoyd

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Re: The Poppy Selling Superthread- Merged
« Reply #53 on: October 31, 2007, 11:27:25 »
I have a problem with them claiming that the POPPY is trademarked. It is a flower, not something they drew up out of their minds. Personally I would tell whomever contacted them from the Legion to stuff it as they have really no legal avenues to pursue.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." -- Albert Einstein
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Offline Greymatters

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Re: The Poppy Selling Superthread- Merged
« Reply #54 on: October 31, 2007, 11:35:19 »
The committee said unauthorized use of the poppy symbol could reduce the flower's value as a symbol of war remembrance, according to e-mail excerpts that Bourque posted on his site. 

What a crock.  While the legion may own the rights to selling a plastic poppy immitation, it certainly should not be able to claim the right to the image across Canada.  What next, sueing nursery schools when the kids draw pictures of poppies for Remembrance Day?  As recceguy said, its not about right/wrong, its now about making a buck.

 :tsktsk:

 
« Last Edit: October 31, 2007, 12:04:34 by Greymatters »

Offline JBoyd

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Re: The Poppy Selling Superthread- Merged
« Reply #55 on: October 31, 2007, 11:40:58 »
I did a small bit of searching and found Mr. Butt's offical Legion email address, just incase anyone here would like to let the man know of their opinions of this matter.

bbutt@legion.ca
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." -- Albert Einstein
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Offline Hawk

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Re: The Poppy Selling Superthread- Merged
« Reply #56 on: October 31, 2007, 11:53:14 »
I poked around online and found this:

http://www.legion.ca/asp/docs/BB_05/05-057.htm

It appears they can do this. I found another site that says the poppy was copyrighted in 1948. Not right, but there it is.

 :cdn:
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Offline Bruce Monkhouse

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Re: The Poppy Selling Superthread- Merged
« Reply #57 on: October 31, 2007, 11:54:28 »
All those who think they shouldn't hold a copyright should keep quiet then when a website like this pops up...............cause it will.






THIS POPPY IS OUR WAY OF SAYING SORRY TO ALL THE INNOCENT CIVILIANS THE CANADIAN ARMY HAS BUTCHERED AROUND THE WORLD.


                                        PEACE OUT
IF YOU REALLY ENJOY THIS SITE AND WISH TO CONTINUE,THEN PLEASE WIGGLE UP TO THE BAR AND BUY A SUBSCRIPTION OR SOME SWAG FROM THE MILNET.CA STORE OR IF YOU WISH TO ADVERTISE PLEASE SEND MIKE SOME DETAILS.

Everybody has a game plan until they get punched in the mouth.

Offline JBoyd

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Re: The Poppy Selling Superthread- Merged
« Reply #58 on: October 31, 2007, 12:03:21 »
I poked around online and found this:

http://www.legion.ca/asp/docs/BB_05/05-057.htm

It appears they can do this. I found another site that says the poppy was copyrighted in 1948. Not right, but there it is.

 :cdn:
Hawk

It looks like they may have copyright's on their VERSION of the poppy



However the generic image of a poppy that we all know and love should have no rights reserved.

(yes I realize that is a picture of an actual wearable poppy, however could not quickly find a drawn image of the poppy (that was different than the one that Bruce posted above), like the one in the lest you forget avatar for this site.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2007, 12:12:33 by JBoyd »
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." -- Albert Einstein
"Thinking is the hardest work there is, which is the probable reason why so few engage in it." -- Henry Ford

Live your life in such a way, that when you wake up and your feet hit the floor, the Devil says "S*** It's awake!"

Nill illigitimi carborundum

Offline TCBF

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Re: The Poppy Selling Superthread- Merged
« Reply #59 on: October 31, 2007, 12:09:22 »
I joined the RCL 26 years ago because of the good things they did for WW1 and WW2 vets, some of whom were my relatives.  As those vets died off, a new generatrion has kept the Legion keep branches afloat in dozens of small towns across Canada for the benefit of those old vets still alive.  That is changing.  As soon as smoking was banned, the crowds started thinning out and dying off.

Perhaps it is time for a new generation of veterans to join and carry the torch.  Any organization must change to stay relevant and new blood is needed to carry on.

But: In Canada, WW1 produced 600,000 veterans and WW2 almost a million. There is nowhere near that many CF vets being produced at once today.  

If we don't feel the Legion is responsive to are needs, then we should join it and change it.

Will that happen? Probably not.  Our greatest generations of yesteryear were our joiners, our builders and our organisers.  Something about having survived the wars and the 'Great Depression' of the 'Dirty Thirties'.  Boomers and younger mostly 'cocoon' in their residences, surrounded by their electronics.

We have yet to experience our generation's greatest trauma.
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Offline Technoviking

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Re: The Poppy Selling Superthread- Merged
« Reply #60 on: October 31, 2007, 12:13:03 »
The Royal Canadian Legion started as "The Great War Veterans' Association".  Why not start an "Afghanistan War Veterans' Association?"  I think that the poppy could be supplanted by the marajuana leaf as our "emblem of remembrance"

In Panjwai's fields, the marajuana grows
Between the mudhuts, row on row
That mark our LD; and in the sky
The Apaches, still bravely gunning, fly
Scare heard amid the Bushmasters below.


EDIT: Apologies to LCol McRae.  This is just me being sarcastic.

 
« Last Edit: October 31, 2007, 12:16:34 by Mortarman Rockpainter »
So, there I was....

Offline military granny

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Re: The Poppy Selling Superthread- Merged
« Reply #61 on: October 31, 2007, 12:14:14 »
OK I have to put my $0.02  worth in here. Yes the Legion Poppy Campaign generates money but do you know where that money goes ? Any Legion across Canada has to abide by strict rules on where the money collected can be donated.This fund can not be used for everyday cost of running the Legion.  VETERANS or Veteran extended care facilities,widows of Veterans etc. receive most of the money. If there was no copyright on the poppy, and it was available year round, do you really think the Legion could collect enough money to help our Veterans as much as they do?

http://legion.ca/asp/docs/rempoppy/mandate_e.asp


The major source of funding for the Legion to accomplish this most important work is the annual Poppy Campaign, the foundation of our Remembrance Program. It is the generosity of Canadians that enables the Legion to ensure that our veterans and their dependants are cared for and treated with the respect that they deserve.
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Offline Greymatters

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Re: The Poppy Selling Superthread- Merged
« Reply #62 on: October 31, 2007, 12:17:43 »
All those who think they shouldn't hold a copyright should keep quiet then when a website like this pops up...............cause it will.

There is nothing wrong with their holding a copyright for the products they produce or sell, however the Legion has claimed the image of the poppy as theirs and no one else's.  It may be legal, but I find it ethically and morally wrong.  The poppy does not belong to a corporation, it belongs to the men and women and their families who fought for peace, and those who support that concept.  The copyright should be used as a tool to protect the symbol from misuse, not as a money-making machine.  Any person or organization should be able to show that symbol as a gesture of their support, not be told to take it down.  

  

Offline Bruce Monkhouse

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Re: The Poppy Selling Superthread- Merged
« Reply #63 on: October 31, 2007, 12:21:22 »
They can,.......just not the copyrighted one without permission.

See MG's post above for more.
IF YOU REALLY ENJOY THIS SITE AND WISH TO CONTINUE,THEN PLEASE WIGGLE UP TO THE BAR AND BUY A SUBSCRIPTION OR SOME SWAG FROM THE MILNET.CA STORE OR IF YOU WISH TO ADVERTISE PLEASE SEND MIKE SOME DETAILS.

Everybody has a game plan until they get punched in the mouth.

Offline Strike

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Re: The Poppy Selling Superthread- Merged
« Reply #64 on: October 31, 2007, 12:22:16 »
Granny,

In response to your statement does that mean the copywrite is on the symbol or the plastic poppy alone?

I fail to see how posting a photo on a web site can reduce the number of poppies sold over the season.  Now, if someone was making poppy pins and selling/giving them away, I could see the upset.

Which brings up a good point...wouldn't the white poppy pins be considered a copywrite infringment?

(Aside: Always held to the belief that the Legion kept the current design of a straight pin to that we would lose them more often and have to keep buying them.   ;D  It's for a good cause.  What do I care.)
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Offline Technoviking

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Re: The Poppy Selling Superthread- Merged
« Reply #65 on: October 31, 2007, 12:25:18 »
(Aside: Always held to the belief that the Legion kept the current design of a straight pin to that we would lose them more often and have to keep buying them.   ;D  It's for a good cause.  What do I care.)

It may just be a conspiracy theory, but you're right: it's for a good cause and I buy a poppy about once every two to three days, it seems.
So, there I was....

Offline Bruce Monkhouse

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Re: The Poppy Selling Superthread- Merged
« Reply #66 on: October 31, 2007, 12:25:46 »
You don't have to buy them if you don't want too, that is just an option.
[not aimed at you Strike/ MR,.. just saying]
IF YOU REALLY ENJOY THIS SITE AND WISH TO CONTINUE,THEN PLEASE WIGGLE UP TO THE BAR AND BUY A SUBSCRIPTION OR SOME SWAG FROM THE MILNET.CA STORE OR IF YOU WISH TO ADVERTISE PLEASE SEND MIKE SOME DETAILS.

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Offline Blindspot

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Re: The Poppy Selling Superthread- Merged
« Reply #67 on: October 31, 2007, 12:27:43 »
As a graphic designer, I can understand copyright issues on logos, combination marks etc. The government of Ontario has a stylized trillium that shouldn't be used boundlessly. As for the sentiment factor, the solution is simple. Option one: render your own poppy. The shape is open to individual interpretation within easily constructed limits. The colours are a no-brainer. The second option would be for him to ask permission. If he's refused, see option one.

Seems to me, either option would have more sentiment behind it then simply plastering someone else's intellectual property on your website.
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Offline military granny

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Re: The Poppy Selling Superthread- Merged
« Reply #68 on: October 31, 2007, 12:29:41 »
Strike
All the web site had to do was contact the Legion Command and ask permission, hell even facebook got permission to allow people to post the poppy on their sites. The web site in question failed to do so and were told to remove it. From where I'm sitting if the owners of the web site didn't know the copywrite for the poppy was held by the Legion then OK a mistake was made and they can fix it in a few ways. If they knew and ignored it then there could be big trouble, still fixable with a letter sent to Legion Command.
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Offline JBoyd

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Re: The Poppy Selling Superthread- Merged
« Reply #69 on: October 31, 2007, 13:26:19 »
I agree with that the website should have asked to use the legions stylized poppy, however the legion does not hold rights to the poppy in general, or the fact it is used as a rememberance due to a poem. The poppy will be around long after the legion , and most likely will still hold the same rememberance, not only due to a national holiday, but from the passing on's of generations. I support wearing poppy's in rememberance, however perhaps this year I will construct my own poppy for rememberance.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." -- Albert Einstein
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Live your life in such a way, that when you wake up and your feet hit the floor, the Devil says "S*** It's awake!"

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Offline redleafjumper

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Re: The Poppy Selling Superthread- Merged
« Reply #70 on: October 31, 2007, 13:37:15 »
Military Granny is completely correct.  As a past legion branch president, I can assure you that there all sort of persons who are quite willing to misuse or misrepresent the poppy for purposes not in keeping with the poppy as the symbol of remembrance.  Consider the 'white poppy" which pops up as a direct counterpoint to the blood red poppy of Flanders. There are a number of stylized versions of the poppy symbol in use for the Poppy Campaign and remembrance and they are all copyrighted by the various legions including the British Commonwealth ex-Services  League, British Legion and so on.  The design of the poppy varies greatly from country to country; a friend brought me a nice one from Australia which is a long stemmed poppy which looks quite flower-like.

It should be remembered that at the conclusion of the Great War, there were many veteran's organizations.  It was very quickly realized that combining those with common interests would make the greater sum of them much more effective in furthering the aims and needs of veterans.  Some groups never merged with the Legion and chose to remain separate.  Some veterans didn't like the involvement of Field Marshall Haig who dedicated his life to veteran's causes after WW1.  Still others decried what they saw as the watering down of the Legion in the 1940s by adding those WW2 veterans and others.  I hope that we are all beyond those differences and realize that the Royal Canadian Legion is a critical part of promoting veterans' rights and ensuring that the sacrifices of the fallen are remembered  for all time.

The Poppy is the symbol of remembrance; it must be protected so as not to degrade, minimize or misrepresent that remembrance for purposes in conflict with the aims and objectives of the the Poppy Campaign and the support of veterans and their dependants.  That's why that symbol is protected and why that protection is important.  Wearing a poppy means that you have helped to support veterans and their dependants.  Wearing one you made means that haven't, and are trying to make a political statement that really helps no one.

Cheers,

Redleafjumper
« Last Edit: October 31, 2007, 13:42:46 by redleafjumper »
Redleafjumper

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Online GAP

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Re: The Poppy Selling Superthread- Merged
« Reply #71 on: October 31, 2007, 13:41:43 »
The RCL needs to give it's head a shake.....

Displaying the poppy for purposes of support of the RCL campaign and Remembrance Day is not the people you need to be slagging by threatening court action. If the purpose is being misused....fine go after them with both barrels blazing.....but displaying for purposes of support.....gimme a break!!

and don't tell me about setting precedents.....that's crap.
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Offline the 48th regulator

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Re: The Poppy Selling Superthread- Merged
« Reply #72 on: October 31, 2007, 14:19:59 »
Quote
"The poppy is a trademark of the legion and anyone who wants to use it has to apply," wrote Bob Butt, the communications director of the organization's Dominion Command. "Otherwise it would be all over the place."

Butt's e-mail added: "Sorry, I know your heart and many others are in the right place."


Why then did he not explain it as a loss of income, from being on his site.

My understanding is that Butt does not wish to water down the meaning of the Poppy, through mass use.

Now to me, this just says that they can pick an choose who can use the Poppy?  I hope they remember that the next time the general public takes action against a store or some other corporate organization that refuses to acknowledge the Poppy.

dileas

tess
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Offline redleafjumper

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Re: The Poppy Selling Superthread- Merged
« Reply #73 on: October 31, 2007, 14:43:21 »
Of course the Legion clears who might use the poppy for corporate purposes and certainly those wanting to "use" the poppy should expect to ask.  The problem with places not "acknowledging the poppy" as Tess put it, is usually one of refusing to allow the Legion to canvass for the poppy campaign. 

It is probably useful at this point to review the specific uses of the poppy funds.

The Poppy is the symbol of Remembrance and funds raised in the poppy campaign are used for:

1.  Assistance to ex-service personnel and their dependants
2.  Affordable housing and care facilities for veterans and other elderly or disabled persons and their dependants
3.  Community medical appliances and medical research and training
4.  Support services for seniors such as drop-in centres, meals-on-wheels, transportation and related services
5.  Providing bursaries for needy students
6.  Cost of the poppies, wreaths and supplies

When one donates to the poppy campaign and wears a poppy, or displays a wreath, or just makes a donation, that is what the money is used to support.  The money is used in the community where it is raised except if unspent at the end of the poppy campaign year (early fall) when left-over funds are collected by command for provincial projects that support the above.  I have personally helped to distribute these funds and it is heartening to see the difference that these public monies, held and given out in trust by the RC Legion, make to people.

The Legion does not have a monopoly on remembering the fallen, as that is a personal matter, but the Legion is the custodian of the symbol of remembrance and how that symbol is used.  I firmly believe that that custodianship is needed, well warranted and well looked after by the Royal Canadian Legion. 
Redleafjumper

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Re: The Poppy Selling Superthread- Merged
« Reply #74 on: October 31, 2007, 14:48:56 »
Nobody is arguing that for corporate purposes the RCL should mandate permission.

A little common sense needs to be used here.

If, close to Remembrance Day, a site puts a poppy on to remember the fallen, that enhances the RCL campaign.

There is no return to the website owner for displaying the poppy at that time, other than that people are being encouraged to remember the upcoming day of remembrance.

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I´m not so sure about the universe