Author Topic: "Unionizing" the CF (merged)  (Read 78381 times)

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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: "Unionizing" the CF (merged)
« Reply #250 on: February 21, 2017, 15:08:33 »
The notwithstanding clause lets you set aside the rights and freedoms of art 2 and arts 7 to 15. Basically, the fundamental freedoms such as freedom of conscience, of belief, of expression, then the  judicial rights against search, seizure, your rights if arrested, etc (but including the right to life and liberty - but this one is already limited by "as exist" in a free and democratic society, which includes the right to conscript in most democracies I know), and the most important for setting aside: The right to non-discrimination based on sex, origin, religion, etc.

Now why would we want to restrict that last one? You implement conscription, bring it down equally on women, LGBT Canadians and members of any faith, I say. They want full equality - no reason not to do their fair share of the killing/dying protection of those rights requires.
 

Offline Ostrozac

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Re: "Unionizing" the CF (merged)
« Reply #251 on: February 21, 2017, 15:26:56 »
The notwithstanding clause lets you set aside the rights and freedoms of art 2 and arts 7 to 15. Basically, the fundamental freedoms such as freedom of conscience, of belief, of expression, then the  judicial rights against search, seizure, your rights if arrested, etc (but including the right to life and liberty - but this one is already limited by "as exist" in a free and democratic society, which includes the right to conscript in most democracies I know), and the most important for setting aside: The right to non-discrimination based on sex, origin, religion, etc.

Personally, I suspect that Conscription fails Article 7 -- security of the person. But your legal opinion may be equally valid, backed by common standards throughout world democracys. Anyway, it would be fun to see the supreme court case. Well, it would be fun if wasn't happening in the middle of World War III.

Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: "Unionizing" the CF (merged)
« Reply #252 on: February 21, 2017, 17:05:44 »


Now why would we want to restrict that last one? You implement conscription, bring it down equally on women, LGBT Canadians and members of any faith, I say. They want full equality - no reason not to do their fair share of the killing/dying protection of those rights requires.
 

I'm sure the groups you've mentioned would find sufficient reason to restrict conscription to eligible males only....white heteros, who have had the "privilege" of fighting and dying for for Canada for 150 years. I can hear the screams of anguish now.....
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Offline mariomike

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Re: "Unionizing" the CF (merged)
« Reply #253 on: February 21, 2017, 19:36:18 »
I'm sure the groups you've mentioned would find sufficient reason to restrict conscription to eligible males only....white heteros, who have had the "privilege" of fighting and dying for for Canada for 150 years.

Canada has not had conscription in over 70 years.

The US conscripted males of all colours during Vietnam,

"Blacks suffered disproportionately high casualty rates in Vietnam. In 1965 alone they comprised almost one out of every four combat deaths."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War_casualties#Disproportion_of_African_American_casualties

"while blacks only made up about 11% of the population of the US."





« Last Edit: February 21, 2017, 20:23:44 by mariomike »
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Offline mariomike

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Re: "Unionizing" the CF (merged)
« Reply #255 on: March 02, 2017, 08:25:56 »
If conscription / draft was ever re-instated, how could / would that work with a unionized military?

Unionization during peacetime might be an interesting social experiment, but during wartime?

« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 09:25:04 by mariomike »
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: "Unionizing" the CF (merged)
« Reply #256 on: March 02, 2017, 11:21:44 »

Unionization during peacetime might be an interesting social experiment, but during wartime?

I don't know about the rest of the readership but the CAF is not a place for "social experiments". The CAF has a job to do and "social experiments" only distract from that.
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Offline mariomike

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Re: (merged)
« Reply #257 on: March 02, 2017, 11:50:42 »
I don't know about the rest of the readership but the CAF is not a place for "social experiments". The CAF has a job to do and "social experiments" only distract from that.

Thank-you.

I did not suggest the peacetime CAF unionize. I understand the CAF has a job to do.

My question was, "If conscription / draft was ever re-instated, how could / would that work with a unionized military?"

"...during wartime?"

Although it hasn't happened since 1945, there may come a time "during hostilities or during a time of war as declared by the Government of Canada" when civilians are drafted into the CAF.

When, like it or not, Reservists are involuntarily activated to full-time and, like it or not, may be sent out of Canada.

VR's will / may be put on hold until "cessation of hostilities".

What good will a union do then?

I do not believe any of the readership served during Conscription.  So, I thought it was a reasonable question.

We have been debating this 11-page  ' "Unionizing" the CF ' thread for the last thirteen years.

I have no dog in the fight either way. Just asking.  :)




« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 13:10:26 by mariomike »
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Offline Loachman

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Re: "Unionizing" the CF (merged)
« Reply #258 on: March 02, 2017, 13:54:21 »
I don't know about the rest of the readership but the CAF is not a place for "social experiments".

Huh? We've been a venue for social experimentation for almost four decades that I remember.

Offline mariomike

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Re: "Unionizing" the CF (merged)
« Reply #259 on: March 02, 2017, 14:18:43 »
Huh? We've been a venue for social experimentation for almost four decades that I remember.

Saw this from a thread fifteen years ago,
http://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,2435.0/nowap.html

Quote
Why I Quit: A Sampling of the Survey

Some responses to the Canadian Forces' survey:

(The Canadian Forces) is now no more than a social experiment conducted by politicians who have no idea what the ultimate role of the military is."
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: "Unionizing" the CF (merged)
« Reply #260 on: March 02, 2017, 16:01:42 »
Huh? We've been a venue for social experimentation for almost four decades that I remember.

And you are correct in that assessment. I'm saying the CAF is not the place to conduct them.
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Offline Loachman

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Re: "Unionizing" the CF (merged)
« Reply #261 on: March 02, 2017, 17:08:54 »
But it is, as opposed to shouldn't be.

We do seem to make things work better and sooner than the rest of society, though.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: "Unionizing" the CF (merged)
« Reply #262 on: March 02, 2017, 17:19:41 »
But it is, as opposed to shouldn't be.

We do seem to make things work better and sooner than the rest of society, though.

Oh, sure, so you're suggesting that we're more effective just because we're run almost exclusively by middle aged white men who oppose unions, right? ;)
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Offline Loachman

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Re: "Unionizing" the CF (merged)
« Reply #263 on: March 02, 2017, 18:58:05 »
I have yet to reach middle age, but may qualify as "angry".

Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: "Unionizing" the CF (merged)
« Reply #264 on: March 02, 2017, 19:41:50 »
I have yet to reach middle age, but may qualify as "angry".

So after 43 (?) years of service and those unproductive years prior to joining, you expect to live well past 118 years of age.  I've accepted that I'm a middle aged guy, however, I did get a little pissed several years ago when I saw a sign in a Sears store that indicated age 55 for the senior citizens discount.
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Offline Brasidas

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Re: "Unionizing" the CF (merged)
« Reply #265 on: March 28, 2017, 01:19:38 »
So after 43 (?) years of service and those unproductive years prior to joining, you expect to live well past 118 years of age.  I've accepted that I'm a middle aged guy, however, I did get a little pissed several years ago when I saw a sign in a Sears store that indicated age 55 for the senior citizens discount.

Many years ago, I made some idle observations and mentioned to my wife that I felt old. Seeking to reassure me as I approached my 30th birthday, she said that I wasn't old but rather that I was "just middle-aged".