Author Topic: Orca-class Training Vessel Hits Victoria-Class Submarine  (Read 2380 times)

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Offline serger989

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- further mod edit to fix thread title typo -
« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 10:58:19 by milnews.ca »

Online jollyjacktar

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Offline Half Full

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Re: Orcs-class Training Vessel Hits Victoria-Class Submarine
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2017, 09:06:17 »
CHI just doesn't get a break... ???
I would rather be in a boat with a drink on the rocks than in the drink with a boat on the rocks.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Orcs-class Training Vessel Hits Victoria-Class Submarine
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2017, 09:43:48 »
Just a few comments:

First of all, what the heck is an "allision" as opposed to a collision ??? 24 years in the Navy and never heard the term. Just looked up my Oxford dictionary, my Webster dictionary and my Jackson's Nautical Terms and Definitions and it's not even mentioned as an existing term. The creation of  PA officer to spare CHI the ignominy of being involved in yet another collision? I can guarantee that the paperwork that now has to be done is called a "Collision and Grounding Report".

Second, I don't know how the Summary Investigation report will read, but if I was writing it, it would likely read "Who was the idiot Harbour Master who thaught it was a good idea to park training vessels, operated by trainees, so they would have to manoeuver in close proximity to an expansive vessel covered in electronics systems and special coating called a submarine - a type of vessel that is much wider and longer than they appear from what sticks out on the surface - with protrusions forward, aft and to the side that a trainee may not anticipate."

Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Orcs-class Training Vessel Hits Victoria-Class Submarine
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2017, 10:10:38 »
What did the poor Submarine ever do to you Mr. Orca?  ;D

Yet another example of "it isn't just the shipbuilding industry, Government of Canada, special interest groups we need protection from" we clearly also need protection from ourselves   >:D

Offline Colin P

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Re: Orcs-class Training Vessel Hits Victoria-Class Submarine
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2017, 10:17:41 »
Just a few comments:

First of all, what the heck is an "allision" as opposed to a collision ??? 24 years in the Navy and never heard the term. Just looked up my Oxford dictionary, my Webster dictionary and my Jackson's Nautical Terms and Definitions and it's not even mentioned as an existing term. The creation of  PA officer to spare CHI the ignominy of being involved in yet another collision? I can guarantee that the paperwork that now has to be done is called a "Collision and Grounding Report".

Second, I don't know how the Summary Investigation report will read, but if I was writing it, it would likely read "Who was the idiot Harbour Master who thaught it was a good idea to park training vessels, operated by trainees, so they would have to manoeuver in close proximity to an expansive vessel covered in electronics systems and special coating called a submarine - a type of vessel that is much wider and longer than they appear from what sticks out on the surface - with protrusions forward, aft and to the side that a trainee may not anticipate."

You see the word "allision" a lot more these days, some group along the way decided it was to confusing having one word cover multiple types of events. Likely some lawyers who fawn over words a tad much. As for dock selection it may be that the work to replace A & B Jetty along with other dock upgrades is causing a bit of a shuffle.

Edit, a look of historical photo's on GE shows that the sub location and the Orca tieup have been going on there for at least 4 years and the subs been tied there for longer.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 10:21:41 by Colin P »

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Orcs-class Training Vessel Hits Victoria-Class Submarine
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2017, 10:28:08 »
What did the poor Submarine ever do to you Mr. Orca?  ;D

Yet another example of "it isn't just the shipbuilding industry, Government of Canada, special interest groups we need protection from" we clearly also need protection from ourselves   >:D

It's not quite like that HB. When manoeuvring like that for coming alongside or leaving harbour, contact at very low speed happens or can potentially happen quite frequently. That is why all ships have and use fenders, usually some fixed (tied down at strategic location) and a number hand held by seaman so they can be moved to points of contact. When that happen, nothing come of it and the vessels just bounce of the fenders. Problem is, today's fenders are all pneumatic - inflated rubber tubes or balls in shapes, and, well, a "balloon" floats so it can't sink in the water to be set between the protruding hull of a submarine and a surface vessel. So it can cause  [:-[

Offline milnews.ca

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Re: Orcs-class Training Vessel Hits Victoria-Class Submarine
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2017, 11:02:34 »
... what the heck is an "allision" as opposed to a collision ??? 24 years in the Navy and never heard the term. Just looked up my Oxford dictionary, my Webster dictionary and my Jackson's Nautical Terms and Definitions and it's not even mentioned as an existing term ...
Sounds like a pretty specific kind of contact ...
Quote
1  obsolete :  the action of dashing against or striking upon

2    :  the running of one ship upon another ship that is stationary —distinguished from collision
Holy buzzword, Batman ...
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Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Orcs-class Training Vessel Hits Victoria-Class Submarine
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2017, 11:32:31 »
It's not quite like that HB. When manoeuvring like that for coming alongside or leaving harbour, contact at very low speed happens or can potentially happen quite frequently. That is why all ships have and use fenders, usually some fixed (tied down at strategic location) and a number hand held by seaman so they can be moved to points of contact. When that happen, nothing come of it and the vessels just bounce of the fenders. Problem is, today's fenders are all pneumatic - inflated rubber tubes or balls in shapes, and, well, a "balloon" floats so it can't sink in the water to be set between the protruding hull of a submarine and a surface vessel. So it can cause  [:-[

Coming from a family with many relatives involved in commercial fishery, I know a bit about docking in tight harbours.  I was more making a joke about your earlier post where you said:

Second, I don't know how the Summary Investigation report will read, but if I was writing it, it would likely read "Who was the idiot Harbour Master who thaught it was a good idea to park training vessels, operated by trainees, so they would have to manoeuver in close proximity to an expansive vessel covered in electronics systems and special coating called a submarine - a type of vessel that is much wider and longer than they appear from what sticks out on the surface - with protrusions forward, aft and to the side that a trainee may not anticipate."

The hull shape of the Submarine should probably be a good indicator that some extra precautions should be taken, not to mention it's a strategic naval asset and probably should be kept away from trainees  ;D

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Orca-class Training Vessel Hits Victoria-Class Submarine
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2017, 11:54:06 »
If a "U-boat" can't take a tap from a squishy aluminum training vessel, how will it be able to make a high speed run down the Laurentian Abyss and communicate with one ping only?  ;)

Half-jokingly, but aren't the U-boats made with HY-100?  That's some pretty strong stuff, I thought.  Coating, yup, inspect, but the steel has a MoE of more than 30,000,000 psi!

Regards
G2G

Offline Colin P

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Re: Orca-class Training Vessel Hits Victoria-Class Submarine
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2017, 12:54:18 »
Sounds like they hit a trim vane which had a wooden fender to protect it, I guess they have the sub where they do to prevent it from being hit by bigger ships that can do damage to it.

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Orca-class Training Vessel Hits Victoria-Class Submarine
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2017, 12:59:25 »
Sounds like they hit a trim vane which had a wooden fender to protect it, I guess they have the sub where they do to prevent it from being hit by bigger ships that can do damage to it.

Don't trim vanes tear holes in surface vessels and sink them?  I recall seeing a video of USN tug getting hung up on a boomer's tailplane and sinking after the plane gashed through the tug's hull like butter.

Regards
G2G

Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: Orcs-class Training Vessel Hits Victoria-Class Submarine
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2017, 16:54:58 »
Sounds like a pretty specific kind of contact ...Holy buzzword, Batman ...

It's to distinguish between two ships colliding at sea (in the night!) and a ship hitting something stationary, like a jetty, dock, parked ship etc.

For example, PRE running into the irving submersible dock and the trawler hitting WIN were both allisions, but ALG and PRO was a collision.

I first heard the term with the PRE incident.  Apparently it's used to clearly delineate the two due to some maritime law roots on who is responsible, the idea being with an allision, it's entirely the fault of the captain that's underway.  Otherwise it's a question of the various rules for collision avoidance.

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Orca-class Training Vessel Hits Victoria-Class Submarine
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2017, 09:44:33 »
I always kind of wondered about the wisdom of nesting the Orcas right behind the submarine berth. It has got to be about the hardest jetty to get to in Esquimalt, and yet that is where they put the training ships....

Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Orca-class Training Vessel Hits Victoria-Class Submarine
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2017, 10:11:57 »
I always kind of wondered about the wisdom of nesting the Orcas right behind the submarine berth. It has got to be about the hardest jetty to get to in Esquimalt, and yet that is where they put the training ships....

Train to fail  ;D

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Orca-class Training Vessel Hits Victoria-Class Submarine
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2017, 10:41:09 »
Train to fail  ;D

Or train to high stress and filter out those who won't be able to perform?  Perhaps the occasional bump or two is worth the risk in making sure operators can perform. :nod:

Maybe the Navy has it right? ;)

Regards
G2G

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Orca-class Training Vessel Hits Victoria-Class Submarine
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2017, 11:40:11 »
I always kind of wondered about the wisdom of nesting the Orcas right behind the submarine berth. It has got to be about the hardest jetty to get to in Esquimalt, and yet that is where they put the training ships....

Don't overlook the power of "we've always put them there" approach to berth assignment.  :nod:

Offline FSTO

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Re: Orca-class Training Vessel Hits Victoria-Class Submarine
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2017, 08:14:54 »
Couple of issues regarding berthing assignments;

- Orca's used to berth at B Jetty but the AB Jetty project has advanced to the point where B Jetty is now being dismantled
- There is a project to replace the ML Floats and was to be finished by now but it was so fubard that they scrapped it a started fresh (where have we heard this before?) The new project is up and running and it will be located between the Hood Building and Y Jetty. But it is still a couple of years away from fruition
- D jetty in Colwood was considered but the FF bill was considered to be too high, (DND firefighter respond to ORCA alarms since the ships are not crewed when alongside in Esquimalt)

So they are stuffed closed to the sub and stuff happens.