Author Topic: Providing Contact info  (Read 598 times)

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Offline stellarpanther

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Providing Contact info
« on: May 06, 2017, 11:08:07 »
Can anyone provide a reference that discusses mbr's providing their unit with contact info?  Although I am a clerk, anything I have seen or been told states that contact info needs to be provided but doesn't specify what type. As far as I'm concerned, a mbr can provide a home phone with voicemail or if someone at home answers they can take a message and forwards it to the mbr and the mbr calls the unit back.  Nothing that I can find says a mbr needs to provide a cellphone number.  We have a mbr in that situation and I'm trying to help him out because his CoC says he needs to give his cell number out against his wishes.  I don't think he does.

Offline LunchMeat

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Re: Providing Contact info
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2017, 11:25:22 »
Can anyone provide a reference that discusses mbr's providing their unit with contact info?  Although I am a clerk, anything I have seen or been told states that contact info needs to be provided but doesn't specify what type. As far as I'm concerned, a mbr can provide a home phone with voicemail or if someone at home answers they can take a message and forwards it to the mbr and the mbr calls the unit back.  Nothing that I can find says a mbr needs to provide a cellphone number.  We have a mbr in that situation and I'm trying to help him out because his CoC says he needs to give his cell number out against his wishes.  I don't think he does.

It's really that simple. Contact information.

Could literally be anything. There is no regulation or order stating a member must have or provide a cellphone. If that were the case then the CAF would issue out cellphones to every recruit.
"The most important six inches on the battlefield is between your ears.” ~General James "Mad Dog" Mattis, USMC

Offline PuckChaser

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Re: Providing Contact info
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2017, 12:22:52 »
If you need to be in contact 24/7, the CAF will need to issue a blackberry or pager. I see nothing wrong with providing a home landline number that has a voicemail or answering machine. The mbr should be asking their CoC for a reference that states the requirement for a cellphone, or if the unit is willing to cover the cost of subj phone.

Offline Loachman

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Re: Providing Contact info
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2017, 12:24:14 »
If that were the case then the CAF would issue out cellphones to every recruit.

Just like it does with landline phones and facebooks...

Offline Simian Turner

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Re: Providing Contact info
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2017, 13:07:31 »
Each unit should have Standing Orders that explains the recall process and notice to move levels of the unit.  The latter will normally dictate how accessible members need to remain.  There was never an issue, in many units that I served with, to provide numbers which were shown as "Unlisted" on published recall lists.  If a unit regularly (quarterly, semi-annually) exercises their recall process then the bugs can be worked out as to where these unlisted numbers can be held - Duty Officer Book, Chief Clerk's files, Supervisor's Division Notes, etc.  There was always a differentiation between unit recall lists, nominal roles, NOK contact forms and social telephone lists, etc. 

In the pre-cellphone era there was sometimes a discussion about how you would contact soldiers who "lived in" quarters but preferred the comfort of their girlfriends loft to their four-man rooms.  That was often settled with a Duty NCO sign-out book or weekend leave passes. For many living off Base the discussion was do I have to pay for a home phone just so that my chain of command could contact me.  Often reasonable means were found to avoid this unnecessary expense unless people were in high-readiness units in which the CO/RSM would say if you can't afford the home phone on top of your rent then we will make a bed space/room in the barracks for you!  Losing living out privileges for single guys was a common experience.
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Offline Ludoc

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Re: Providing Contact info
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2017, 13:30:17 »
Can anyone provide a reference that discusses mbr's providing their unit with contact info?  Although I am a clerk, anything I have seen or been told states that contact info needs to be provided but doesn't specify what type. As far as I'm concerned, a mbr can provide a home phone with voicemail or if someone at home answers they can take a message and forwards it to the mbr and the mbr calls the unit back.  Nothing that I can find says a mbr needs to provide a cellphone number.  We have a mbr in that situation and I'm trying to help him out because his CoC says he needs to give his cell number out against his wishes.  I don't think he does.

So you're asking for the reference that says pers have to obey lawful commands?

Offline mariomike

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Re: Providing Contact info
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2017, 13:33:18 »
Nothing that I can find says a mbr needs to provide a cellphone number. 

You may find this discussion of interest,

Ordered to "get a phone". 
https://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,117338.0.html
OP: "Turns out one of the other guys in the room was recently threatened a charge after the MWO was unable to reach him on his cell"
4 pages.
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Offline Occam

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Re: Providing Contact info
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2017, 13:38:38 »
So you're asking for the reference that says pers have to obey lawful commands?

I would question the lawfulness of a command that directs a member to provide their cellphone number, when a suitable landline number with voicemail is available.

Offline Ludoc

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Re: Providing Contact info
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2017, 17:07:27 »
I would question the lawfulness of a command that directs a member to provide their cellphone number, when a suitable landline number with voicemail is available.
CoC: Give me your cell number.

Bloggins: Here is my home number.

CoC: Is that what I asked for?

Bloggins: No, but it is good enough.

CoC: With your land line can I send a quick text during the work day/at lunch to you if I need you to do something or need to pass some information on when we aren't co-located?

Bloggins: No...

CoC: If there is a recall and we need you to return to the unit ASAP is it quicker to call your cell or wait for you to get home and check your messages?

Bloggins: Well, I will probably have my cell on me so...

CoC: If there is an disaster and landlines are affected but cell phones (whose towers contain generators and battery back up) are still working how should I try to contact you?

Bloggins: You should call my cell...

CoC: If we are meeting off base for PT and I get called away/stuck in traffic should I leave a message on your home phone, which you will not be able to check until after work or should I call your cell?

Bloggins: I guess you should call my cell...

CoC: Right, give me your cell number.

Why do I have to update ORLs when a vehicle's condition is tracked by DRIMIS? Why do I need to keep the parade state current when all the same information can be found in Monitor Mass? Why do we sweep and squeegee the vehicle bay every week, even if we have not used it during that time? Because the CoC said to.

We live in a connected world and your CoC expects to have your cell number. Does that mean they will be calling you all the time? No. Do you need to have your cell on/with you all the time? No. But you do need to provide your cell number when told by your CoC to do so.

To be quite frank, it doesn't matter if providing your home number instead is suitable. When ordered to do something you do it. Just because you think something is stupid to do does not mean you don't have to do it. Stupid orders are still lawful commands.

Offline Occam

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Re: Providing Contact info
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2017, 17:34:46 »
CoC:  Give me your cell number.

Bloggins:  Here is my home number.

CoC:  Is that what I asked for?

Bloggins:  No, but it is good enough.

COC:  With your land line can I send a quick text during the work day/at lunch to you if I need you to do something or need to pass some information on when we aren't co-located?

Bloggins:  No, but if you need to get that work-related information to me, then you can staff a request for me to have a DND-provided BlackBerry or cellphone.

CoC: If there is a recall and we need you to return to the unit ASAP is it quicker to call your cell or wait for you to get home and check your messages?

Bloggins:  If there's a recall, I would have advance notice that we're subject to recall and I would check my voicemail, remotely if necessary.

CoC: If there is an disaster and landlines are affected but cell phones (whose towers contain generators and battery back up) are still working how should I try to contact you?

Bloggins:  If there's a disaster of such a nature that it takes out landlines, the media will be reporting that all military personnel from CFB XXXXX are to immediately report for duty.  Or, you can provide me with a DND BlackBerry.

CoC: If we are meeting off base for PT and I get called away/stuck in traffic should I leave a message on your home phone, which you will not be able to check until after work or should I call your cell?

Bloggins:  If you decide to change the plans for the day after you've already issued instructions in the morning, and you know I'm not checking in with the office after that, then it's your problem how to communicate them to me.  Provide me with a DND-issued BlackBerry.

CoC:  But I want your cell phone number.

Bloggins:   It's my PERSONAL cell phone.  DND is not going to reimburse my airtime, text, or data charges for the amount used for government business.  If you have a CF-related requirement for you to be able to reach me on short notice, then that might be justification for you to have a DND-issued BlackBerry or cell phone provided to me.  Otherwise, I'm not that important that I need to be reached with such a short fuse.

You do NOT need to provide your PERSONAL cell phone number to your CoC unless it's going to be your only means of communication on leave or something like that.  If your role in the CF is sufficiently important that you need to be reached on short notice, a DND-issued device will be provided to you.

"When ordered to do something you do it".  No, when an order is patently wrong, you do not have to do it.  The CF didn't provide your personal cell phone, isn't paying for your personal cellphone, and you're not at the CF's beck and call via your cell phone.  You need to provide contact information sufficient enough to get a hold of you commensurate with the level of readiness you're currently working under.  If you're an on-call tech, and need to be at the work site within 30 minutes of the flare being sent up, that's sufficient justification for a DND-issued cell phone.  If you're not under any heightened requirement for readiness, leaving a message on your home phone should be sufficient if you're expected to work at 0800 the next day.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2017, 18:10:44 by Occam »

Offline stellarpanther

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Re: Providing Contact info
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2017, 17:59:23 »
In this particular case, they called his house, his wife answered but wouldn't provide the cell number.  She sent the mbr a text which he received as soon as he left his eye appointment and he called the supervisor about 30-40 minutes later.  This wasn't enough for the supervisor because he thought he should have the cell number even though having it wouldn't have made a difference because the phone was turned off while in the appointment.

He has unlimited texting but only 50 minutes daytime airtime but unlimited airtime with his wife on a family plan.

The CoC can order people to do a lot of things but there are still limits to what they can do that some people don't seem to understand. 

Offline Occam

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Re: Providing Contact info
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2017, 18:24:58 »
That's just wrong.

An order to provide your personal cell phone number is about as lawful as an order to a CF member who doesn't own a cell phone to go out and buy one for all the reasons mentioned above.