Author Topic: Now We Don't Need Pilots  (Read 4575 times)

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Offline mariomike

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Re: Ambulance drone
« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2017, 09:56:44 »
I now there is a lot of folks who call things like a Reaper or a BAMS-D a drone, but it is being flown and sensors operated in a GCS somewhere. 

Emergency services communicate directly with the public on calls. I usually found it best to spare them the jargon, and use simple words they can understand.
Even if technically incorrect.

« Last Edit: March 27, 2017, 10:07:38 by mariomike »
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Ambulance drone
« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2017, 10:09:37 »
Emergency services communicate directly with the public on calls. I usually found it best to spare them the jargon, and use simple words.

Mods, perhaps this can be merged with this discussion regarding EMS communications topics, seems more fitting a place than a ROTORHEAD airlift discussion. 

http://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,123553.0.html

Also for reference: 

https://www.google.ca/?gws_rd=ssl#q=how+should+ems+communicate+with+the+public&*&spf=64

and

https://www.google.ca/?gws_rd=ssl#q=how+should+ems+communicate+with+the+public+toronto+ontario&*&spf=373


Back to the topic...

Has anyone considered the fact the enemy isn't likely going to just let you fly these things around and not try to disrupt your automated little plan?

How would you counter a GPS jamming environment for a true drone UAS?  What about the use of tactical EMP weapons?
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Offline mariomike

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Re: Ambulance drone
« Reply #27 on: March 27, 2017, 10:12:50 »
Mods, perhaps this can be merged with this discussion regarding EMS communications topics, seems more fitting a place than a ROTORHEAD airlift discussion. 

I posted in the emergency services forum.

It was moved to ROTORHEADs.

I've merged mariomike's thread with this one, as there are enough similarities.
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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Ambulance drone
« Reply #28 on: March 27, 2017, 11:28:20 »
Quote
Emergency services communicate directly with the public on calls. I usually found it best to spare them the jargon, and use simple words.
Mods, perhaps this can be merged with this discussion regarding EMS communications topics, seems more fitting a place than a ROTORHEAD airlift discussion. 

...or the fact that it's an ambulance drone that doesn't need to communicate directly with dispatch does relate a bit to the merged topic.  Perhaps enough similarity that we can try keeping it here for now.

Back to Chris' original query:  I figure that somewhere back towards the introduction of the autopilot, there were white silk scarf wearing aviators (I'm mentally picture Lord Flashheart* at the moment) talking down the capability and why there will never be an aircraft that can fly itself.  More people than they know themselves have probably touched down in a CAT 3C autopiloted aircraft, and not guessed that the plane landed fully automated and was even taxiing in to the gate entirely on its own.  Supervised, yes, but one day, it won't be.

I don't have an issue for example travelling in a TOTALLY automated light rail shuttle (I'm thinking at the very least of the little ones at LHR's T3 as an example).  It's only a matter of time before automated travel is STATISTICALLY safer than pilot-flown (and crashed) aircraft.  Whether its the milambudrone in Chris' first post, or hitching a ride with an already autonomous USMC K-Max helidrone, there will be a time when it is simply accepted for what it is.

If humans were infallible and never misjudged things aviation, then sure, there might never be a compelling case for automation.  We all know that homo sapiens are but a wee bit less than perfect, though.

If it was me and there were no MH-60 Pave Hawk for hours and a trip in MILAMBUDRONE was the best chance to get to help fast, frig it....I'd be IN! ;D

Regards
G2G


* - Lord Flashheart...WOOF, WOOF!
« Last Edit: March 27, 2017, 12:17:42 by Good2Golf »

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Now We Don't Need Pilots
« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2017, 11:34:04 »
And, the whole EMP, GPS-jammer counter-UAS system that the enemy is sure to have (they exist now...)...thoughts on how that will unfold?
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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Now We Don't Need Pilots
« Reply #30 on: March 27, 2017, 11:57:56 »
With respect EITS but how much of your old Lockheed Electra's kit, or even a CF-18's kit, would survive a concerted EMP attack?   Recognizing the difficulty of answering that question in a non-secure environment.

Having said that, the whole modern universe is at risk with electronic warfare.  Personally I think that GPS has reached the end of its useful life militarily. It can be jammed, spoofed or shot down. The replacement has to be some combination of knowing exactly where that mountain top is on the horizon, which is possible thanks to the surveying legacy GPS has given us, and where I am relative to your Aurora.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Now We Don't Need Pilots
« Reply #31 on: March 27, 2017, 12:14:13 »
Well, that's my point.  [Regardless of what year the Aurora rolled off the line ('79, '80 maybe) the kit inside it isn't that old.  (Historical fact...the Aurora was never a P3 or Electra on the inside...it was a Viking at birth  ;D, but all of that is long gone)]   

What aircraft, or systems, would survive EMP?  What system will replace GPS...is there one?  When will it be operational?

GPS jamming is fairly significant on todays 3 dimensional battlespace.  You're saying we need to replace it, and maybe we do.  I am saying, its what we have to use now so lets talk reality.  Otherwise, we can dismiss any weapon or countermeasure out there because we know we are going to have *shields* a la the Starship Enterprise any day now.'

If you are going to plan these things flying around, GPS guided as the article says if not flown by UAV pilot, then you have to have a backup for that.  Think of how easy it would be for a terrorist in NYC, lets say, to start blanking out GPS signals over XX part of the city, with these UAS air ambulances flying around and then into tall buildings, with glass and debris raining down on the people walking around below.

When you talk about a system, etc it is often helpful to think of that system from the enemy standpoint; *how can I use this against them, how can I make this fail when they need it the most?*

Caps & Lims;  You have to look at the Lims.  Military and civilian uses in this day at age.  The Twin Towers weren't true military targets, yet they were targets and were taken down.  The enemy doesn't limit his list of targets to military ones because he isn't for a military success.  You dump billions, maybe more, across a country into UAV emerg services, across all the US, lets say.  How many do I have to take out in *your* cities, that cause death and fear, before the whole thing is a waste of money because no one will use it or the civil/political masters of the day won't rely on them because a few were taken out?

Now, I've bled oodles of money out of your *whatever level of government* and left you with technologically advanced paper weights.  Everyone assumes these UASs, even ones intended for civie use, are going to be fine and dandy.  The enemy will use anything if given the chance.

Someone has to play the Devils Advocate.

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Offline Loachman

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Re: Now We Don't Need Pilots
« Reply #32 on: March 27, 2017, 12:16:18 »
Or, two minutes from landing at (military combat scenario) a pre-programmed GPS location, an IED explodes leaving a massive crater or (civilian urban scenario) a panicked crowd surges across it and has nowhere to go, what does the drone (yes, correct use of the term in this case) do?

We are a long way from building an artificial brain with enough flexibility to react to rapidly changing complex situations. We have yet to build either a UAV or a GCS (Ground Control Station) that provides any semblance of peripheral vision that will permit operating in close-in complex situations. Maybe someday. Not tomorrow. And they won't be cheap.

And UAVs suffer mishaps too, either due to the same human factors that affect both onboard and offboard crews (coupled, in the case of the latter, severely reduced situational awareness) or equipment shortfalls. What happens when an autonomous machine encounters a situation not envisaged by its designer?

Automated short-distance rail transit systems are comparatively simple. Automated full-sized trains weighing up to 25000 tons being hauled by two or more 200-ton locomotives across thousands of kilometres of mainly single-track mainline (requiring meets at passing sidings) through three-dimensional urban and wilderness terrain and subject to washouts, landslides, weather, and a host of other lesser factors, are not.

Automated aircraft departing from and arriving at known locations that can be reasonably guaranteed as clear and safe and following specific routes are relatively simple too. Police, ambulance, and most military aircraft operations are not so simple.

I'd not want to be a passenger on any autonomous aircraft unless my life absolutely depended upon it.

Ever.

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Now We Don't Need Pilots
« Reply #33 on: March 27, 2017, 12:19:26 »
I'd not want to be a passenger on any autonomous aircraft unless my life absolutely depended upon it.

Ummmm, isn't that the aspect being discussed specifically?  MILAMBUDRONE ???

Offline Loachman

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Re: Now We Don't Need Pilots
« Reply #34 on: March 27, 2017, 13:18:33 »
Yes, but the initial "helicorpster" concept posted had no capacity for patient care so I do not count that one as viable. I was referring to mariomike's ambulance with onboard attendant. I'd not want to be a patient on it if there was any other option, and I'd definitely not want to be the attendant.

At least the patient only has to risk his or her life once per round trip, and the second half of the round trip would be the safer one - leaving the scene of mayhem, chaos, and unknown hazards for a known and hazard-free dronopad.

I'll wait for the transporter beams, thanks.

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Now We Don't Need Pilots
« Reply #35 on: March 27, 2017, 13:50:44 »
Yes, but the initial "helicorpster" concept posted had no capacity for patient care so I do not count that one as viable. I was referring to mariomike's ambulance with onboard attendant. I'd not want to be a patient on it if there was any other option, and I'd definitely not want to be the attendant.

At least the patient only has to risk his or her life once per round trip, and the second half of the round trip would be the safer one - leaving the scene of mayhem, chaos, and unknown hazards for a known and hazard-free dronopad.

I'll wait for the transporter beams, thanks.

Your grandchildren will appreciate your caution...  Half a mo' though!  Will you be around to have children?   >:D

With respect to pilots sitting on their hands while the plane is automatically landed - Thank god the door to the cockpit is locked and I can't see her sweat.   Ultimately I want to know that somebody that understands the situation is sharing my fate.
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Offline mariomike

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Re: Now We Don't Need Pilots
« Reply #36 on: March 27, 2017, 14:38:19 »
...or the fact that it's an ambulance drone that doesn't need to communicate directly with dispatch does relate a bit to the merged topic.  Perhaps enough similarity that we can try keeping it here for now.

I was referring to mariomike's ambulance with onboard attendant. I'd not want to be a patient on it if there was any other option, and I'd definitely not want to be the attendant.

Neither would I.

I don't care so much if it's on land, on water ( we have a Marine division ) or in the air. It's the working alone part that would bother me.

An average Unit hour Utilization ( UhU ) of .5 is generally considered an urban paramedic's physical and mental breaking point.
And that's with a partner. 

My guess is that HQ would try to double the UhU with "ambulance drones" ( sorry, call them what you will ). I like "Corpster"  ;D
They probably could too, because they can avoid the severe traffic congestion that is delaying street response and transport times.

To justify the cost, my guess is that HQ would be trying to prove that they were saving twice as many lives at half the cost in wages and benefits.

A one wo/man ambulance would probably be a dream come true for some of them.  :)

« Last Edit: March 27, 2017, 15:32:45 by mariomike »
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Offline Loachman

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Re: Now We Don't Need Pilots
« Reply #37 on: March 27, 2017, 21:10:11 »
My guess is that HQ would try to double the UhU with "ambulance drones" ( sorry, call them what you will ). I like "Corpster"  ;D

If it has no human operator, onboard or off, and therefore operates autonomously, it is correctly called a drone.

For comparison purposes, how much does a regular ambulance cost?

Offline mariomike

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Re: Now We Don't Need Pilots
« Reply #38 on: March 27, 2017, 21:49:17 »
For comparison purposes, how much does a regular ambulance cost?

I wouldn't know. But, it's expensive to ride in them.

"A ride in an ambulance in Winnipeg sits at $522."
http://globalnews.ca/news/2914642/the-cost-to-ride-a-winnipeg-ambulance-how-far-will-your-external-coverage-go/

« Last Edit: March 27, 2017, 22:08:53 by mariomike »
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Offline Loachman

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Re: Now We Don't Need Pilots
« Reply #39 on: March 28, 2017, 00:25:27 »
Maybe there's a new line for Uber.

Offline mariomike

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Re: Now We Don't Need Pilots
« Reply #40 on: March 28, 2017, 08:19:09 »
Maybe there's a new line for Uber.

At least they can find you.

You can order Uber - or a pizza - with an app on your cellphone.

70 to 80 percent of 9-1-1 calls are now made from wireless devices. The chances of getting a mobile caller’s location correct varies widely -- from 10 percent to 95 percent, depending on the caller’s distance from a cell tower.
 
They say that by 2021 our emergency services will be able to find you on your cell phone  ( 4 out of 5 times ).  :)

« Last Edit: March 28, 2017, 08:43:46 by mariomike »
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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Now We Don't Need Pilots
« Reply #41 on: March 28, 2017, 11:41:09 »
I see that I am being told that Google Maps is going to be broadcasting my location - unless I find the hidden switch buried in the menus to turn it off.

Perhaps the correct app would be a Beacon icon that I could keep next to my Phone icon so that I could broadcast my location easily when I wanted to.

Would that reduce the response time?
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Offline mariomike

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Re: Now We Don't Need Pilots
« Reply #42 on: March 28, 2017, 12:25:58 »
I see that I am being told that Google Maps is going to be broadcasting my location - unless I find the hidden switch buried in the menus to turn it off.

So does Facebook and Domino pizza.  :)
« Last Edit: March 28, 2017, 12:38:30 by mariomike »
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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Now We Don't Need Pilots
« Reply #43 on: March 28, 2017, 13:08:10 »
So does Facebook and Domino pizza.  :)

How's a guy supposed to get away from the wife and kids?
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Offline Loachman

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Re: Now We Don't Need Pilots
« Reply #44 on: March 28, 2017, 13:23:26 »
And ISIS kidnappers and the NSA and...

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Now We Don't Need Pilots
« Reply #45 on: April 22, 2017, 18:52:57 »

A model of the EHang 184 autonomous aerial vehicle is displayed at the World Government Summit 2017 in Dubai’s Madinat Jumeirah on February 13, 2017. (Stringer/AFP/Getty Images)

http://www.realclearlife.com/cars/dubai-will-debut-passenger-carrying-drones-summer/

"Dubai Will Debut Passenger-Carrying Drones This Summer

Drones could be ferrying tourists around the skies of Dubai as early as this summer, according to the city’s transportation authority.
After debuting a year ago, the Ehang 184 could be introduced as early as July in a milestone for the transportation industry. The autonomous flying taxi project is part of a plan by the city to have 25 percent of its transportation be self-driving by 2030.

Capable of carrying one passenger, the electric drone travels on a pre-programmed course, selected by the passenger and approved by a flight control center, at approximately 60 miles per hour. Chinese drone manufacturer Ehang has built the autonomous taxi, which travels 1,000 feet in the air, has a maximum flight time of 30 minutes, and recharges in two hours.

The announcement was made after the Ehang 184 was successfully tested in Dubai. It comes on the heels of another futuristic transport concept announced in November. Hyperloop One is planned to connect Abu Dhabi with Dubai. Watch a test flight below."

https://youtu.be/I_XLExB_wyc

Just another opportunity to make Loachman's day.   >:D
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Now We Don't Need Pilots
« Reply #46 on: April 24, 2017, 10:24:51 »
I know it's a test rig, but eventually they will have to encase the blades and that as I recall will increase the risk of "ring state vortexes"

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Now We Don't Need Pilots
« Reply #47 on: April 24, 2017, 11:34:44 »
Further to my last.

Apparently there is a "But".

https://www.armytimes.com/articles/the-army-adds-the-dronebuster-to-its-set-of-anti-drone-tools

Quote
The Army is adding the 'Dronebuster' to its set of anti-drone tools
By: Todd South, April 23, 2017 (Photo Credit: Staff Sgt. Vito Bryant)

The newest tool in the Army’s counter-drone arsenal is the "Dronebuster," a 5-pound radar gun-like device that soldiers can use to jam weaponized commercial drones while at remote forward operating bases or on foot patrol.

The Army’s Rapid Equipping Force bought 50 of the devices this month, and they should be delivered in the coming weeks, according to Clay Wild, vice president of marketing for Radio Hill Technologies, a Portland, Oregon-based technology startup.

The device starts at $30,000, depending on accessories, uses five custom antennae and a “technique generator” that uses less than 10 percent of the battery power to create the jamming signal. The power-saving method allows for a smaller device than some competitors, Wild said. ...

More at link.


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