Author Topic: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty  (Read 32479 times)

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Offline ExRCDcpl

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Re: 16 Jan - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #50 on: January 17, 2017, 08:51:00 »
Wonder why the Queens Cowboys are doing the investigation and not the MP/NIS/NCIU. The MP group put out a statement earlier saying they weren't conducting or knew of any investigation.

In my experience during my time as an MP, the trade is incapable of conducting proper unbiased investigations on senior ranks.  Unfourtunately rank very much influences how investigations are completed and the trade (without even realizing it most of the time) allows outside interference because people seem to be hesitant to tell anyone above the rank of LCol to back off.

I think the Mounties taking the lead on this is the best thing for the CF to ensure a properly investigated, transparent investigation.

Just my opinion though.

Offline AirDet

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #51 on: January 17, 2017, 10:25:22 »
Gents, I really don't want to be "that guy" but we need to remember that anything we hear will be pure speculation at this point. The Vice has proven to be an honest and upstanding leader to many of us for years. He deserves our objectivity just as he did for us. He has not been charged with anything at this time and even if he is charged it would still require due process.

All I'm saying is this is a man I respected for years. He EARNED that respect. Let's at least wait until the entire story is made public before jumping to conclusions.

Don't forget that the media in all likelihood is monitoring this site like vultures.
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Offline beachdown

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #52 on: January 17, 2017, 10:44:21 »
..in other news, Leslie is back! As the Liberals put it, it has to align itself with the Trump Govt which only understand Billionaires and ex Generals. A number of cabinet chief of staffs have been re-assigned.

Offline Lightguns

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #53 on: January 17, 2017, 10:49:46 »
..in other news, Leslie is back! As the Liberals put it, it has to align itself with the Trump Govt which only understand Billionaires and ex Generals. A number of cabinet chief of staffs have been re-assigned.

Likely a good move, Trump, a private military school graduate, has displayed some affinity for soldiers. 
Done, 34 years, 43 days complete, got's me damn pension!

Offline Bruce Monkhouse

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #54 on: January 17, 2017, 10:59:32 »
the Trump Govt which only understand Billionaires and ex Generals.

I've been on this site a long, long time and never have I had to put up with such a whiny petulant child like yourself.   Must be over 62 million Billionaires and ex-Generals in the USA...........I mean obviously all us pathetic misunderstood common folk couldn't have voted for him.
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Offline Remius

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #55 on: January 17, 2017, 11:11:05 »
Likely a good move, Trump, a private military school graduate, has displayed some affinity for soldiers.

And I would bet that he may know a few of the new appointments or at least know people that can open doors to said people.
Optio

Offline beachdown

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #56 on: January 17, 2017, 11:12:39 »
Relax...don't make this a vendetta thing by reading too much into my posts. I only reported what was written in the media. It takes one to know one re: your comment about "petulant child". Did you actually think I was knocking Leslie or the Liberals????

At times, perhaps just pause and read a post again

I've been on this site a long, long time and never have I had to put up with such a whiny petulant child like yourself.   Must be over 62 million Billionaires and ex-Generals in the USA...........I mean obviously all us pathetic misunderstood common folk couldn't have voted for him.

Offline gryphonv

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #57 on: January 17, 2017, 11:16:48 »
Relax...don't make this a vendetta thing by reading too much into my posts. I only reported what was written in the media. It takes one to know one re: your comment about "petulant child". Did you actually think I was knocking Leslie or the Liberals????

At times, perhaps just pause and read a post again

No you actually do more than report what is in the news, you spin it to get an inflamed response. The ' Trump Govt which only understand Billionaires and ex Generals. ' Is you simply trying to troll.

Don't act innocent, at least own up to your own side of things, I may not agree with you but I can respect a guy who stands for his side when he get called out.

Offline beachdown

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #58 on: January 17, 2017, 12:16:31 »
You are completely out to lunch. If you can open the attached link...read the exact words or such as written in the article. The only person "trolling" is you....suggesting that you know my intent is like you claiming to be able to read minds or being clairvoyant (which I highly doubt)  ::)

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/trudeau-promotes-former-general-to-forge-closer-ties-with-us/article33643165/



No you actually do more than report what is in the news, you spin it to get an inflamed response. The ' Trump Govt which only understand Billionaires and ex Generals. ' Is you simply trying to troll.

Don't act innocent, at least own up to your own side of things, I may not agree with you but I can respect a guy who stands for his side when he get called out.

Offline gryphonv

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #59 on: January 17, 2017, 12:25:57 »
You are completely out to lunch. If you can open the attached link...read the exact words or such as written in the article. The only person "trolling" is you....suggesting that you know my intent is like you claiming to be able to read minds or being clairvoyant (which I highly doubt)  ::)

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/trudeau-promotes-former-general-to-forge-closer-ties-with-us/article33643165/

So where in the article does it state 'only understand Billionaires and ex Generals'? I've read the article and there is nothing of the sort, there are statements they are on the same page and , but not 'only understand', it is a spin, Call it what you like, It's still a spin.

Any time you misquote an article, there is a spin, intended or not.

*Edited for Grammar which I always fail at.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2017, 12:31:21 by gryphonv »

Offline NFLD Sapper

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #60 on: January 17, 2017, 12:27:32 »


Leave personal attacks out of this thread...
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Offline Remius

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #61 on: January 17, 2017, 12:29:28 »
You are completely out to lunch. If you can open the attached link...read the exact words or such as written in the article. The only person "trolling" is you....suggesting that you know my intent is like you claiming to be able to read minds or being clairvoyant (which I highly doubt)  ::)

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/trudeau-promotes-former-general-to-forge-closer-ties-with-us/article33643165/

Had you provided the link and actually quoted it properly it might not have been misunderstood... :dunno:

Sometimes on the internet it is hard to get one's intent unless we are very clear. Otherwise people might rely on other posts and history to guess,
Optio

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #62 on: January 17, 2017, 12:30:43 »
Folks, I sense the bickering is growing out of frustration because we don't have a clue as to the reason for the removal, but believe it must be serious. This latest story will not do anything to lessen our frustration, and in fact can only increase speculation. It is reproduced under the Fair Dealings provision of the Copyright Act.

http://www.nationalnewswatch.com/2017/01/17/pm-backs-vance-in-relieving-senior-military-commander-but-wont-say-more-2/#.WH5G6hRlsfF

PM backs Vance in relieving senior military commander, but won’t say more
By The Canadian Press — Jan 17 2017

OTTAWA — Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is backing the decision by Canada's chief of the defence staff to relieve his second in command of his duties, but won't say anything more about the controversy swirling around Vice-Admiral Mark Norman.

Word emerged Monday that Norman was abruptly stripped of his responsibilities by his boss, Gen. Jonathan Vance, in a tersely worded letter dated Jan. 13.

Neither Vance nor Trudeau would say why Norman was relieved.

Norman, former commander of the Royal Canadian Navy, was appointed to the vice-chief position last summer.

The vice chief is essentially the No. 2 in the military hierarchy and is responsible for security, among other things.

Trudeau says the government is behind Vance, but like Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan, has nothing else to say.

"The chief of defence staff took a decision and this government supports Gen. Vance in the decision that he took,"  Trudeau told a news conference today in New Brunswick.

"I have nothing further to say on this at this time."

Citing an anonymous source, the Globe and Mail reported Monday that the decision followed an investigation into the alleged leak of "high-level secret documents." 

Trudeau said Canada wants to reassure allies that security is observed.

"We continue to engage with our allies to demonstrate the seriousness with which we take issues of security, because it's essential for co-operation and collaboration," he said.

Conservative defence critic James Bezan said the government owes the public an explanation.

"This situation is unprecedented and it is odd that the government and the military are not providing any details," he said in a statement.

"Of course we expect all necessary precautions to be taken when there are national security and privacy implications involved. However, when a decision of this magnitude is made Canadians deserve to be kept informed."

The RCMP would not say whether they had Norman under investigation for any reason, noting they generally never confirm or deny who is or isn't under scrutiny.

But the military police said they were not involved.

"We weren't, and we are not, investigating on this case," Maj. Jean-Marc Mercier, a public affairs officer with the military police group said in an interview.

Vice-Admiral Ron Lloyd — who took over command of the navy from Norman — has been appointed as interim vice chief.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2017, 12:34:06 by Old Sweat »

Offline Bruce Monkhouse

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #63 on: January 17, 2017, 12:33:55 »
Quote
We have drawn the conclusion that the two kinds of people these guys rely on is billionaires and generals.


Quote
a senior official said
   

 Journalist-speak for " I made this up". :nod:
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Offline beachdown

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #64 on: January 17, 2017, 12:40:45 »
There..."on the same page", so I paraphrased big deal. Anyway the article mentioned Billionaires and generals, and not something I pulled from thin air...lets move on

So where in the article does it state 'only understand Billionaires and ex Generals'? I've read the article and there is nothing of the sort, there are statements they are on the same page and , but not 'only understand', it is a spin, Call it what you like, It's still a spin.

Any time you misquote an article, there is a spin, intended or not.

*Edited for Grammar which I always fail at.

Offline beachdown

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #65 on: January 17, 2017, 12:43:38 »
You are right! However, people need to stop trying to read into stuff and stop the vendetta and Trump-like personal attacks.
Had you provided the link and actually quoted it properly it might not have been misunderstood... :dunno:

Sometimes on the internet it is hard to get one's intent unless we are very clear. Otherwise people might rely on other posts and history to guess,

Offline Bruce Monkhouse

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #66 on: January 17, 2017, 12:45:20 »
You are right! However, people need to stop trying to read into stuff and stop the vendetta and Trump-like personal attacks.

Just wow!!!!
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Offline gryphonv

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #67 on: January 17, 2017, 12:49:36 »
Back on topic though. I like most of us wait with Baited Breath to see how this all pans out.

Nothing in the Globe and Mail article is a proven fact yet. It still is better than the sexual harassment spin the CBC was using, by saying the last time similar incidents happened was because of sexual harassment. Greasy journalism, but this has been the norm for the CBC last few years.

I do find it interesting that the Globe is saying the RCMP are investigating, makes me think this is bigger than a localized event. Or at least involvement with entities outside of the military.

I was a sailor for a time and met this the VCDS on a couple times. Being a lower decker I never really cared much for him, but he did seem more personable that the majority of Flag Officers I met. He always felt more approachable.

I don't think someone in his position would have a lapse of judgement, or do anything inherently against our interests. I hope we all can give him the benefit of the doubt for now at least.

Offline NFLD Sapper

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #68 on: January 17, 2017, 12:52:48 »

I do find it interesting that the Globe is saying the RCMP are investigating, makes me think this is bigger than a localized event. Or at least involvement with entities outside of the military.


As indicated speculated before the RCMP are maybe investigating because the Provost Marshal reports directly to the Vice Chief of the Defence Staff ....

Can you imagine the optics if the Provost Marshal was investigating...

Canadian Forces Provost Marshal is also the Commander of the Canadian Forces Military Police Group. The Group includes the Canadian Forces National Investigation Service, the investigation arm of the Canadian Forces Military Police, the Canadian Forces Service Prison and Detention Barracks, the Military Police Security Service and the Canadian Forces Military Police Academy.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2017, 13:09:02 by NFLD Sapper »
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Offline gryphonv

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #69 on: January 17, 2017, 12:55:52 »
As indicated before the RCMP are investigating because the Provost Marshal reports directly to the Vice Chief of the Defence Staff ....

Can you imagine the optics if the Provost Marshal was investigating...

Canadian Forces Provost Marshal is also the Commander of the Canadian Forces Military Police Group. The Group includes the Canadian Forces National Investigation Service, the investigation arm of the Canadian Forces Military Police, the Canadian Forces Service Prison and Detention Barracks, the Military Police Security Service and the Canadian Forces Military Police Academy.

Good point, I am probably, and hopefully, reading too much into who is investigating.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #70 on: January 17, 2017, 13:03:11 »
gryphons and NFLD Sapper: There is no information whatsoever out there on why the RCMP is said to be investigating or why the Provost Marshal isn't. The only known fact is that the Provost Marshal is not investigation the Admiral - because they said so, and perhaps there is an RCMP investigation, because the Globe and Mail claims to have been so informed (in a leak).

This is pure speculation on your part. And I think we should all avoid speculation of any kind at this time.


Offline Good2Golf

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #71 on: January 17, 2017, 13:04:18 »
Good point, I am probably, and hopefully, reading too much into who is investigating.

Many of the "actions on condition" are almost 'flowchart-like' in their clarity and non-optionality; that is to say that there is a regulatory framework that drives much of the action taken in certain cases: "Condition/situation X, therefore initial action Y to be taken, while follow-on action Z is initiated."

In this case, Y is the only known.  It is appropriate that X is not divulged, and that we may or may not be informed of what Z is, until later.

G2G

Offline NFLD Sapper

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #72 on: January 17, 2017, 13:07:19 »
gryphons and NFLD Sapper: There is no information whatsoever out there on why the RCMP is said to be investigating or why the Provost Marshal isn't. The only known fact is that the Provost Marshal is not investigation the Admiral - because they said so, and perhaps there is an RCMP investigation, because the Globe and Mail claims to have been so informed (in a leak).

This is pure speculation on your part. And I think we should all avoid speculation of any kind at this time.

Thanks OBGD I went back and re-read the thread, my mistake ...edited my post to reflect this...

And I'll go sit in the corner for posting a speculation....
« Last Edit: January 17, 2017, 13:11:14 by NFLD Sapper »
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Offline NavyShooter

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #73 on: January 17, 2017, 13:12:55 »
"I'm not going to give you a question."
 
"No."
 
"Don't be rude."
 
Back to the topic at hand, the varied bits of speculation still leave us no further ahead, but in summary:
 
Rumors:
-Could be related to release of classified material
-Some think it could be OPERATION HONOUR related
-Some think it could be related to early-career missives 
 
Facts:
-Not being investigated by Military Police according to Military Police statement.
-Being investigated by RCMP according to media (in retrospect, this is a rumor....?)
-Acting VCDS is now Lloyd
-PM has no comment on why, just supports Vance
-MND has no comment on why, just supports Vance
-Vance is in Europe
 
I've seen not much more than that, and I think it's a very good thing that the CoC that relieved him are not saying a thing.  That means that they want the man to get a fair shake at things when (or if) the details do finally make it to whatever process this is going to involve (judicial?  remedial? criminal? unknown)
 
The fact that this has occurred at all indicates the level of seriousness of whatever the reason for it is.
 
I'm honestly glad I'm not in his shoes.   

NS

(Sorry about the size issue, I was having trouble posting from my DWAN machine and used my 'smarter than me' phone to make the post...looks like it outsmarted me.)
« Last Edit: January 17, 2017, 21:17:32 by NavyShooter »
Insert disclaimer statement here....

:panzer:

Offline NFLD Sapper

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #74 on: January 17, 2017, 13:16:43 »
"I'm not going to give you a question."
 
"No."
 
"Don't be rude."
 
Back to the topic at hand, the varied bits of speculation still leave us no further ahead, but in summary:
 
Rumors:
-Could be related to release of classified material
-Some think it could be OPERATION HONOUR related
-Some think it could be related to early-career missives 
 
Facts:
-Not being investigated by Military Police according to Military Police statement.
-Being investigated by RCMP according to media
-Acting VCDS is now Lloyd
-PM has no comment on why, just supports Vance
-MND has no comment on why, just supports Vance
-Vance is in Europe
 
I've seen not much more than that, and I think it's a very good thing that the CoC that relieved him are not saying a thing.  That means that they want the man to get a fair shake at things when (or if) the details do finally make it to whatever process this is going to involve (judicial?  remedial? criminal? unknown)
 
The fact that this has occurred at all indicates the level of seriousness of whatever the reason for it is.
 
I'm honestly glad I'm not in his shoes. 
 
NS

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