Author Topic: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty  (Read 13332 times)

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Offline beachdown

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Re: 16 Jan - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2017, 13:53:55 »
...because Canada something close to the BBC, and better than CNN

Even the deplorable CBC is spinning it one way. Remind me why they are publicly funded?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/norman-military-relieved-1.3937401

Offline Remius

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Re: 16 Jan - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2017, 15:01:52 »
Even the deplorable CBC is spinning it one way. Remind me why they are publicly funded?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/norman-military-relieved-1.3937401

CTV is sort of doing the same thing mentioning RMC's issues of late.

I wonder if the media throws in that type of speculation on purpose in the hopes that someone confirms or denies it.  Almost like  A shotgun blast hoping to hit the target. I would think so.
Optio

Offline George Wallace

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Re: 16 Jan - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2017, 15:09:36 »
CTV is sort of doing the same thing mentioning RMC's issues of late.

I wonder if the media throws in that type of speculation on purpose in the hopes that someone confirms or denies it.  Almost like  A shotgun blast hoping to hit the target. I would think so.

The Media are well known for their "Shotgun" approach to seeking information from the Government and DND by means of filing a wide number of ATIP requests. 
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: 16 Jan - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2017, 15:13:02 »
I would expect a letter for sure.

This is not a US cop show with the Chief just walking in and saying "give me your badge and gun and go home".

What I find a little more bizarre is that the twitter confirmation that Mercedes Stephenson received does use the peculiar "relieved of  military duties". What other type of duties does the VCDS have? I just find it weird that there was a need to specify. instead of just saying "relieved of duty"

Actually that is the wording in the QR & O as well.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-queens-regulations-orders-vol-01/ch-19.page

Section 4 - Authority to Relieve a Member from the Performance of Military Duty

19.75 - RELIEF FROM PERFORMANCE OF MILITARY DUTY

(1) This article does not apply to an officer or non-commissioned member to whom article 101.09 (Relief from Performance of Military Duty – Pre and Post Trial) applies, nor to a military judge, the Provost Marshal, the Director of Military Prosecutions or the Director of Defence Counsel Services.

(2) For the purpose of this article, the Chief of the Defence Staff and an officer commanding a command are the authorities who may relieve an officer or non-commissioned member from the performance of military duty.

(3) Notwithstanding paragraph (2), only the Chief of the Defence Staff may relieve an officer or non-commissioned member from the performance of military duty, if that member is on active service by reason of an emergency.

(4) An authority may relieve an officer or non-commissioned member from the performance of military duty if, in a situation other than one provided for under paragraph 101.09(3), the authority considers that it is necessary to relieve the member from the performance of military duty to separate the member from their unit.

(5) The authority who relieves an officer or non-commissioned member from the performance of military duty shall order that the member return to duty when the circumstances giving rise to the decision to relieve the member from the performance of military duty are no longer present.

(6) Prior to determining whether to relieve an officer or non-commissioned member from the performance of military duty, the authority shall provide to the member
a.the reason why the decision to relieve the member from the performance of military duty is being considered; and
b.a reasonable opportunity to make representations.

(7) The authority who relieves an officer or non-commissioned member from the performance of military duty shall, within 24 hours of relieving the member from the performance of military duty, provide the member with written reasons for the decision.

(8.) An officer commanding a command who relieves an officer or non-commissioned member from the performance of military duty or orders that the member return to duty, shall make a report in writing to the Chief of the Defence Staff setting out the reasons for the decision.

(9) An officer or non-commissioned member shall cease to be suspended from duty on the coming into force of this article.

(M) [5 June 2008 – (1); 1 June 2014 – (1) and (4)]

NOTES

(A) Relief from the performance of military duty is not to be used as a form of discipline or as a sanction. Action to relieve a member should only be considered after concluding that other administrative means are inadequate in the circumstances. In determining whether to relieve a member, an authority must balance the public interest including the effect on operational effectiveness and morale, with the interests of the member. A commanding officer must monitor each case to ensure that appropriate action is taken if there are changes in the circumstances on which the decision to relieve a member was based.

(B) Although a member is relieved from the performance of military duty, they are required to obey all lawful commands, including an order to attend before a service tribunal or a board of inquiry.

(C) As an example of the application of this article, a commander who has been removed from command for leadership deficiencies and whose presence at any unit would be disruptive to operational effectiveness, could be relieved from the performance of military duty.

(C) [9 January 2001]
-----------------------------------------------------

WRT to the letter from the CDS, the "no details as to why"...doesn't the CAF and GoC have a responsibility to protect the privacy of the VCDS as they would any member?  If I am on C & P, can my CO just post it up on FB and that's all cool and okay?

Something to consider.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2017, 15:26:22 by Eye In The Sky »
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Offline captloadie

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Re: 16 Jan - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2017, 15:31:56 »
Reading through the QR&O, this sounds like the equivalent of a civilian being suspended with pay until further notice. The note at the bottom distinguishes the difference between being relieved of command (and employed elsewhere in the organization) and being relieved of military duties (sent home).

Offline beachdown

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Re: 16 Jan - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2017, 15:43:08 »
Isn't FB the status board for everything though?  ;D

  If I am on C & P, can my CO just post it up on FB and that's all cool and okay?

Something to consider.

Offline beachdown

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Re: 16 Jan - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2017, 15:46:54 »
A "civilian suspended with pay"...you mean the average private worker or public servant? I can tell you that HR on civvie street doesn't "suspend with pay". Cops of course are notorious for this luxury even when a matter is clear cut like being stopped on the 401 with drugs

http://www.ckwstv.com/2017/01/13/brockville-police-officer-facing-drug-trafficking-charge/

Reading through the QR&O, this sounds like the equivalent of a civilian being suspended with pay until further notice. The note at the bottom distinguishes the difference between being relieved of command (and employed elsewhere in the organization) and being relieved of military duties (sent home).

Offline Bruce Monkhouse

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Re: 16 Jan - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2017, 16:00:41 »
I can tell you that HR on civvie street doesn't "suspend with pay".

Is there anything you aren't an expert on??  Tell us your "proof" or shut up.....

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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: 16 Jan - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2017, 16:18:06 »
Cops of course are notorious for this luxury even when a matter is clear cut like being stopped on the 401 with drugs

http://www.ckwstv.com/2017/01/13/brockville-police-officer-facing-drug-trafficking-charge/

Charges laid doesn't = 'guilty'.   You know, that pesky CANADIAN CHARTER OF RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS thingy...

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/const/page-15.html

Proceedings in criminal and penal matters

11. Any person charged with an offence has the right

(d) to be presumed innocent until proven guilty according to law in a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal;
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Offline little jim

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Re: 16 Jan - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2017, 17:03:01 »
Charges laid doesn't = 'guilty'.   You know, that pesky CANADIAN CHARTER OF RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS thingy...

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/const/page-15.html

Proceedings in criminal and penal matters

11. Any person charged with an offence has the right

(d) to be presumed innocent until proven guilty according to law in a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal;

Unfortunately in the military this doesn't seem to be the case to a person's reputation and career - reference LCol Stalker.

Offline Bruce Monkhouse

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Re: 16 Jan - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #35 on: January 16, 2017, 17:25:00 »
Unfortunately in the military this doesn't seem to be the case to a person's reputation and career - reference LCol Stalker.

Those aren't guaranteed....
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Offline Nudibranch

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Re: 16 Jan - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #36 on: January 16, 2017, 17:52:27 »
Unfortunately in the military this doesn't seem to be the case to a person's reputation and career - reference LCol Stalker.

Oh please. Civis falsely accused and then cleared (and also those found "not guilty", which of course is not the same as being cleared) are no more immune from reputational destruction than military folks. The presumption of innocence is for the legal system, not for how your coworkers and acquaintances view you after an accusation has been made.

In fact, a randon non-union civi would just as likely have been fired, not reassigned. And there would be no requirement to rehire after charges were dropped. At least CAF accused are protected from that.

Offline beachdown

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Re: 16 Jan - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #37 on: January 16, 2017, 19:59:42 »
You mean like Ghomeshi?

Oh please. Civis falsely accused and then cleared (and also those found "not guilty", which of course is not the same as being cleared) are no more immune from reputational destruction than military folks. The presumption of innocence is for the legal system, not for how your coworkers and acquaintances view you after an accusation has been made.

In fact, a randon non-union civi would just as likely have been fired, not reassigned. And there would be no requirement to rehire after charges were dropped. At least CAF accused are protected from that.

Offline beachdown

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Re: 16 Jan - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #38 on: January 16, 2017, 20:00:48 »
As the previous poster pointed out...if only this is true at all levels Military or NOT. Once a case is out there in the media and social media...there is no way to un F a situation

Charges laid doesn't = 'guilty'.   You know, that pesky CANADIAN CHARTER OF RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS thingy...

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/const/page-15.html

Proceedings in criminal and penal matters

11. Any person charged with an offence has the right

(d) to be presumed innocent until proven guilty according to law in a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal;

Offline Old Sweat

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Re: 16 Jan - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2017, 23:07:44 »
More from the Globe and Mail in this piece reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act. Note that, as far as I can determine at this stage, no other news organization has independently confirmed the assertions, which is no indication that the story is true or untrue. It is posted for consideration as a report by a respected publication in a developing situation.

RCMP investigation into alleged leaks prompts Canadian Forces vice-chief’s removal
ROBERT FIFE AND STEVEN CHASE
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/second-ranked-soldier-in-canadian-armed-forces-relieved-of-duty/article33632281/

Ottawa — The Globe and Mail

Published Monday, Jan. 16, 2017 11:31AM EST
Last updated Monday, Jan. 16, 2017 10:23PM EST


An RCMP investigation into the leak of top-secret defence information led to the removal on Monday of Vice-Admiral Mark Norman from his duties as the Canadian military’s second-highest-ranking officer, sources have told The Globe and Mail.

A source said General Jonathan Vance, Chief of the Defence Staff, ordered the temporary relief of Vice-Adm. Norman’s command after an investigation of allegations that “pretty high-level secret documents” were leaked.

The source would not provide further information on the nature of the sensitive leaks. It is unknown whether the alleged leaks involved journalists, business interests or another country.

Another source told The Globe the Mounties had been investigating the case for months. The involvement of the RCMP means the allegations involve the Criminal Code.

RCMP Sergeant Harold Pfleiderer, a spokesman for the force’s National Division, declined comment. “The RCMP does not generally confirm or deny who or who may not be subject of an investigation,” he said in an e-mail. “This is done to protect the integrity of an investigation, the evidence obtained and the privacy of those involved.”

The military is offering no explanation for the extreme measure. Vice-Adm. Norman did not respond to requests from The Globe for comment.

Gen. Vance signed an order for Vice-Adm. Norman’s removal as vice-chief of the defence staff on Friday and the change took effect on Monday morning. Gen. Vance is in Europe this week on “military business,” according to the Forces. “The Chief of the Defence Staff has temporarily relieved the VCDS, Vice-Admiral Mark Norman, from the performance of military duty,” said Lieutenant-Colonel Jason Proulx, spokesman for Gen. Vance. “For the time being, he will not be carrying out the functions of VCDS.”

Lt.-Col. Proulx declined to explain why the military is using the word “temporarily” to describe Vice-Adm. Norman’s removal.

Canadian military administrative law says that removal from command reflects a general loss of confidence in a person’s ability to exercise command effectively as a result of professional or off-duty misconduct, unsatisfactory performance related to serious errors in judgment or a trend of errors having significant impact.

A close friend of Gen.Vance said the Chief of the Defence Staff has a zero tolerance policy for any kinds of leaks and would be especially severe if highly classified material was given to people without proper authorization.

“He wouldn’t have blinked for a second because he knows this is the right thing to do,” the friend said. “Jon would not have allowed any of this to come back on him and he is ruthless when that happens.”

Vice-chief of the defence staff is a powerful position, similar to that of a chief operating officer at a company. Among the VCDS’s jobs is promoting security inside the military.

Vice-Adm. Norman has served in the Forces for 36 years and was previously in charge of the Royal Canadian Navy, which he commanded for more than four-and-a-half years until Gen. Vance appointed him as vice-chief in 2016.

As a high-level officer of the military, a person of Vice-Adm. Norman’s rank would be prohibited under the Security of Information Act and under a number of laws as well as the Queen’s Regulations and Orders, the military’s governing documents, from disclosing without permission classified documents, confidential reports, correspondence or deliberations to unauthorized people, including news agencies.

In late 2015, Vice-Adm. Norman went public with his concerns that Canadians had not been given accurate information about the growing price of planned new warships. He told CBC-TV in December, 2015, that it could cost $30-billion – twice as much as budgeted. His warning left open the possibility that Canada could have to buy fewer or less-capable ships unless Ottawa allocated more money for them.

Vice-Adm. Ron Lloyd, the commander of the Navy, has been appointed as the interim vice-chief of the defence staff.


- mod edit to add link -
« Last Edit: January 17, 2017, 05:50:13 by milnews.ca »

Offline gryphonv

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Re: 16 Jan - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #40 on: January 16, 2017, 23:29:19 »
I really hope this is false, because the crap storm that will follow is going to be massive.

Offline Inspir

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Re: 16 Jan - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #41 on: January 17, 2017, 00:01:50 »
Wonder why the Queens Cowboys are doing the investigation and not the MP/NIS/NCIU. The MP group put out a statement earlier saying they weren't conducting or knew of any investigation.

Offline JesseWZ

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Re: 16 Jan - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #42 on: January 17, 2017, 00:23:10 »
Wonder why the Queens Cowboys are doing the investigation and not the MP/NIS/NCIU. The MP group put out a statement earlier saying they weren't conducting or knew of any investigation.

*Speculation only* the Provost Marshal works directly for the VCDS. Maybe they needed to shunt it outside of the organization entirely.
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Offline Lightguns

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #43 on: January 17, 2017, 06:45:52 »
Well, it doesn't involve murder, fraud or rape, so it is rather refreshing military crime story.  Seriously, going public is not something one should be doing and expecting to have a job afterward.  He should have done the Unification resignation thing, 1. go public with resignation and his reasons for resignation; 2. enjoy reputation as most ethical flag officer in modern times; 3. become military folk hero to disgruntled ratings after death. 
Done, 34 years, 43 days complete, got's me damn pension!

Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: 16 Jan - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #44 on: January 17, 2017, 07:18:59 »
I really hope this is false, because the crap storm that will follow is going to be massive.

And cue " more mandatory training "
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #45 on: January 17, 2017, 07:46:39 »
If what is reported I'd correct, then it is covered by the Security Awareness training that must be completed every 3 years.
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Offline PMedMoe

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #46 on: January 17, 2017, 08:16:22 »
If what is reported I'd correct, then it is covered by the Security Awareness training that must be completed every 3 years.

Which will now change to annually....   >:D
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Offline Cloud Cover

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #47 on: January 17, 2017, 08:21:35 »
Any chance Norman may have reported a security breach that was his own fault, and requested an investigation as some have done with ND's? ? Would Vance have taken the same action?   Here is the most senior sailor with 36 years in the mob, this is all a  bit odd. 

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #48 on: January 17, 2017, 08:25:14 »
Anyone else find it hilariously ironic that the info that the VCDS was fired because he leaked classified info to the media was itself leaked to the media?

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #49 on: January 17, 2017, 08:31:26 »
Anyone else find it hilariously ironic that the info that the VCDS was fired because he leaked classified info to the media was itself leaked to the media?

Not sure I would use the adjective 'hilarious' to describe the irony, but yes, it most likely hasn't gone unnoticed by many.  "A source....." 

Some may posit that 'a leak begets a leak,' although that then raises the question of how far apart from each other are the respective moral planes of the military and the media.

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