Author Topic: (We Think) It's a bomb - Nuclear (But it's not)  (Read 6158 times)

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Offline old medic

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(We Think) It's a bomb - Nuclear (But it's not)
« on: November 04, 2016, 22:00:49 »
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/04/canada-lost-nuke-found-cold-war-bomb

Diver may have found 'lost nuke' missing since cold war off Canada coast
04 Nov 2016

Quote
The Canadian navy will be heading to the coast of British Columbia to investigate claims that a diver may have come across “the lost nuke” – a Mark IV bomb that went missing after an American B-36 bomber crashed in the region during the cold war.

Diver Sean Smyrichinsky was wrapping up a day of diving near Haida Gwaii, an archipelago 80km west of the coast of British Columbia, when he stumbled across what may be the remains of the world’s first known “broken arrow”
..............

Continues at the link above.

- mod edit to thread title to reflect results of probe -
« Last Edit: November 26, 2016, 18:38:42 by milnews.ca »
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Re: It's a bomb - Nuclear
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2016, 23:10:17 »
I suspect things just got exciting down at dockyard, Esquimalt.

And probably in a few places in the US, too.

Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: It's a bomb - Nuclear
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2016, 00:27:19 »
Both reports I've read stated the US claimed it was a dummy capsule, not a bomb.
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Re: It's a bomb - Nuclear
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2016, 00:38:38 »
Both reports I've read stated the US claimed it was a dummy capsule, not a bomb.

There seems to be some ambiguity about whether there were (conventional) explosive charges on this capsule. The USAF claimed in 1950 that the weapon was jettisoned and conventionally detetonated from the B36 in question. If this is the same weapon, that did not happen.

I agree that there is likely no fissile material onboard. That said- if I was the clearance diver making the first approach, what harm would there be in carrying a Geiger counter to make sure?

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: It's a bomb - Nuclear
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2016, 05:04:06 »
Mk 4's fissile core was in-flight loaded, and most records indicate that the fissile core (if there ever was one) was loaded in the 'bird-cage' (core holder) outside of the weapon itself (standard practice at the time).  The weapon casing (HE 'lens' material, etc...) could be called a dummy, but if it did include the HE material, then 'dummy' is not the most accurate term.  A shell the same form factor as the Mk.4, but filled with concrete?  That would be a dummy.  An unarmed weapon without its plutonium core, well...that's just an unarmed atomic device.  If it truly is an unarmed device, it would be an amazing piece of atomic history.  Remember, the Mk.4 was literally just a slightly refined version of the 'Fat Man' bomb dropped on Nagasaki.

Very interesting, indeed. :pop:

Regards
G2G

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Re: It's a bomb - Nuclear
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2016, 09:17:47 »
Agreed on all that you have said, G2G.

The interesting thing, when you start looking into this incident, is the lack of agreement in the source material on whether this was a actual mk4 without the fissile core, but with the explosive lens or was it a concrete (dummy) bomb?

I tend to think that, based on the way the USAF rolled in the early Cold War,it makes this an actual weapon, sans core.

Either way- we will know in about two weeks.

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: It's a bomb - Nuclear
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2016, 11:45:12 »
I tend to think that, based on the way the USAF rolled in the early Cold War,it makes this an actual weapon, sans core.

Agree.  What I've read indicates they placed an inert lead core into the weapon immediately prior to salvoing the weapon.

The history of the B-36 fleet and its operations makes for some riveting reading...those were the airborne equivalents of the growing Soviet and American missile submarine forces that followed about a decade later.

It will be very interesting to see what the RCN (and assuming a few USAF/USN pers as well) come up with in the coming weeks.

Regards
G2G

Offline Rifleman62

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Re: It's a bomb - Nuclear
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2016, 12:57:11 »
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Offline Retired AF Guy

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Re: It's a bomb - Nuclear
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2016, 14:08:23 »
Jettisoned nuclear bombs are not the only WMD laying off the B.C. coast.

During WWII, Canada used Grosse-Ile (off Quebec City) for the development of bacteriological warfare agents, including anthrax. When the war ended all the agents were placed in canisters, loaded on a train and shipped out west, whereupon most of the canisters were dumped in the Pacific Ocean.

I say "most" because apparently, between Grosse-Ile and the west coast, a couple canisters went missing. It was never determined whether they were actually missing or it was just an accounting error.

So down there somewhere, besides the nuclear bomb there are a whole bunch of canisters full of BW agents also waiting to be discovered.
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Offline Old Sweat

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Re: It's a bomb - Nuclear
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2016, 14:13:00 »
Agreed on all that you have said, G2G.

The interesting thing, when you start looking into this incident, is the lack of agreement in the source material on whether this was a actual mk4 without the fissile core, but with the explosive lens or was it a concrete (dummy) bomb?

I tend to think that, based on the way the USAF rolled in the early Cold War,it makes this an actual weapon, sans core.

Either way- we will know in about two weeks.

The account of the incident on pp 167-168 of Eric Schlosser: Command and Control: Nuclear Weapons, the Damascus Accident and the illusion of Safety, New York, 2013 suggests the device was a real weapon, but with the nuclear core removed. The crew jettisoned the device as the aircraft was descending and "its high explosives detonated three thousand feet above the water, and a bright flash lit the night sky."

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Re: It's a bomb - Nuclear
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2016, 14:18:04 »
...the crew jettisoned the device as the aircraft was descending and "its high explosives detonated three thousand feet above the water, and a bright flash lit the night sky."

...or not, potentially.  :nod:

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Re: It's a bomb - Nuclear
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2016, 16:32:13 »
I got a feeling that the crew bs'd the part about the weapon detonating. They may have figured they were in enough trouble already and did not want add a Broken Arrow to the pile.

From the CBC article, the divers's description tracks pretty well with the explosive lens that would go with this type of bomb, what little I know about nuclear weapons.

It would be a lot of fun to be up on that EOD call!

Offline Old Sweat

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Re: It's a bomb - Nuclear
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2016, 16:46:57 »
SKT,

I had the same feeling. The description fits an implosion-triggered device. The question may be how large are the individual lens that would compress the core to a super-critical mass. (Every once in a while I get to use the knowledge from the three nuclear target analysis courses, two Canadian and one Brit, I took as a subaltern in the early sixties.) In theory they would all fire at exactly the same time and that should have produced an air burst, but the story suggests no detonation(s.)
« Last Edit: November 06, 2016, 09:06:00 by Bruce Monkhouse »

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Re: It's a bomb - Nuclear
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2016, 16:53:32 »
It did state in the story I read yesterday that the navy would be responding to the area with a vessel in a couple of weeks time.  Which would suggest to me that it may indeed a practice load of some sort.  Or they're just saying a couple of weeks so not to panic the masses. 

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Offline Rifleman62

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Re: It's a bomb - Nuclear
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2016, 19:40:02 »
IMHO, if it really is a nuc, the USAF would be swarming the area now. And/or someone in the Pentagon is deep into research trying to ascertain if it really is a nuc. I don't think the Historical Research Agency at Maxwell AFB, AL would have the info on the actual load.

Years ago I did some research for a Texas Vietnam era Vet for a pension and contacted the USAF Safety Center. He was in a KC-135 transiting from Alaska, that landed in Edm. The aircraft was was so damaged from the decompression that it was written off. One airman pax was killed. The fellow I was assisting finally got his documented proof of the incident and thus got a pension.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2016, 19:45:32 by Rifleman62 »
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Re: It's a bomb - Nuclear
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2016, 22:17:06 »
I'm fairly confident the USAF has maintained a solid file on their first broken arrow. 

As SKT noted, the dawn of the Cold War was not a time that they were likely carting around concrete.  There is much on the record to note that it was an operable weapon that either had not been armed, or had been armed but safed prior to the captain salvoing the de-activated device into the ocean.

I surmise that the USAF isn't in a rush because they got what they wanted from the crash site in 1953, and know that the only thing left, even if divergent from the original crew's account, is a waterlogged device with several hundred pounds of RDX/TNT.  An EOD challenge, yes, but by all reasonable accounts, no longer a nuclear/radioactive concern.

:2c:

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G2G

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Re: It's a bomb - Nuclear
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2016, 13:29:09 »
I'm fairly confident the USAF has maintained a solid file on their first broken arrow. 

As SKT noted, the dawn of the Cold War was not a time that they were likely carting around concrete.  There is much on the record to note that it was an operable weapon that either had not been armed, or had been armed but safed prior to the captain salvoing the de-activated device into the ocean.

I surmise that the USAF isn't in a rush because they got what they wanted from the crash site in 1953, and know that the only thing left, even if divergent from the original crew's account, is a waterlogged device with several hundred pounds of RDX/TNT.  An EOD challenge, yes, but by all reasonable accounts, no longer a nuclear/radioactive concern.

:2c:

Regards
G2G

PP 168-170 of the same source I cited above states the Mk IV bomb (the same type in the above incident,) in a report of a major accident at what is now Travis AFB, CA, contained five thousand pounds of high explosives. I believe on training and administrative missions, the nuclear core was transported separately.

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Re: It's a bomb - Nuclear
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2016, 13:39:26 »
PP 168-170 of the same source I cited above states the Mk IV bomb (the same type in the above incident,) in a report of a major accident at what is now Travis AFB, CA, contained five thousand pounds of high explosives. I believe on training and administrative missions, the nuclear core was transported separately.

That sounds right, OS.  I should have used thousands in pace of hundreds.  About half the 10,299-10,900 lbs of a Mk.4 was supposed to have been the HE compression charge(s).

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Re: It's a bomb - Nuclear
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2016, 14:54:09 »
I'm surprised nobody mentioned the nuke lost just outside Savannah Georgia in 58. It was a Mark 15 bomb with radioactive material. Never was found and still there to this day.
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Re: It's a bomb - Nuclear
« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2016, 14:59:01 »
Is that the one in the swamps?
Insert disclaimer statement here....

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Re: It's a bomb - Nuclear
« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2016, 15:00:34 »
Is that the one in the swamps?

Apparently.
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Re: It's a bomb - Nuclear
« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2016, 10:42:21 »
Mystery object found off B.C. coast is not a military device: navy
http://www.680news.com/2016/11/25/mystery-object-found-off-b-c-coast-is-not-a-military-device-navy/
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Re: It's a bomb - Nuclear
« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2016, 10:56:55 »
Mystery object found off B.C. coast is not a military device: navy
http://www.680news.com/2016/11/25/mystery-object-found-off-b-c-coast-is-not-a-military-device-navy/

Kind of too bad. It would have made a great story.

Anybody have any idea what it actually is? It kind of looks like part of a boiler.

Offline GR66

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Re: It's a bomb - Nuclear
« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2016, 11:39:44 »
Mystery object found off B.C. coast is not a military device: navy
http://www.680news.com/2016/11/25/mystery-object-found-off-b-c-coast-is-not-a-military-device-navy/

...or that's what they want you to believe

 :Tin-Foil-Hat:

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Re: It's a bomb - Nuclear
« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2016, 18:37:39 »
...or that's what they want you to believe

 :Tin-Foil-Hat:
All part of the conspiracy - this from the info-machine ...
Quote
On November 22, a Royal Canadian Navy (RCN) ship deployed a remotely operated vehicle (ROV) to investigate an object of interest located in the coastal waters off British Columbia. The RCN has confirmed the object is not an unexploded military munition, and poses no risk to the local population.

Scheduled to conduct Route Survey operations in the vicinity of Queen Charlotte Sound, British Columbia, Her Majesty’s Canadian Ship (HMCS) Yellowknife and its crew were re-directed to an area south of Prince Rupert in response to an RCMP request to investigate an unknown subsurface object. Media reports speculated the object could be related to a crash of the United States Air Force B-36 Peacemaker in 1950.

With the assistance of the diver that originally discovered the object, the crew of HMCS Yellowknife used onboard sonar systems, a remotely operated vehicle and a dive team to locate and identify the object. It was determined to be a metal part of a larger machine assembly and appears to be a piece of industrial equipment.

HMCS Yellowknife is a Kingston-class Maritime Coastal Defence Vessel (MCDV) launched in 1997. MCDVs are multi-role minor war vessels with a primary mission of coastal surveillance and patrol including general naval operations and exercises, search and rescue, law enforcement, resource protection and fisheries patrols.

Quotes

“HMCS Yellowknife’s timely response is an excellent demonstration of the RCN’s capabilities. We are proud to have the equipment and people who are able to adapt to any operational demand. RCN ships and their crews are always ready to respond when called upon.”

Lieutenant-Commander Donald Thompson-Greiff, Commanding Officer of HMCS Yellowknife

“We are pleased that HMCS Yellowknife was able to locate the object and determine that the object was not an unexploded military munition. The RCN is pleased to relieve any concerns in the local communities.”

Commander Michele Tessier, Commander Coastal Division, Maritime Forces Pacific

Quick Facts
    The object was determined to be a steel piece of industrial equipment with yellow paint measuring approximately 5.5 m in length and 1 m in height.  It was found in 8 metres of water.
    The search was conducted in two phases which included the use of the ship’s sonar system and later the deployment of a submersible ROV from the deck of HMCS Yellowknife.
Info-machine photos attached - or are they REALLY photos of what's there?   :Tin-Foil-Hat:
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