Author Topic: Desexualized clothing instructions fail for gender specific directions  (Read 22434 times)

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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Canadian society has decided it is okay for men to wear earrings.  I suspect that if the issue made its way to a court marshal today, the military would have a hard time winning the argument that male soldiers cannot wear earrings in situations where women can.  Hell, we are in the age of "choose your own gender and washroom."  We either get ahead of the wave and define the gender-free professional looking dress standards, or eventually those standards will be externally defined for us without concern for what we may think looks professional.  So yes, it is skirts & blouses as an option for everybody or for nobody.  Either everybody can choose between peak cap and peak hat, or everybody is directed to wear the same.


Guys with earrings is hardly a new thing;  I did it back in highschool and that was approaching 30 years ago.  Also..."Canadian society" isn't exactly the best benchmark for making decisions on acceptable/not acceptable things in the military.  WE (the military WE) are not the same as Canadian society, and an outwardly professional appearance is something that sets the uniformed services apart from the 'rest of society'.

Court marshal.  Seems pretty simple.  QR & O Vol 1 (Ch 5, IIRC) basically states Officers and NCMs are responsible to know and adhere to any/all regulations pertinent to their duties, or words to that affect.  265 says no earring for males on duty.  Every Base/Wing Dress Instr I have ever seen fordbids earrings on males in duty.  I don't see the grey line.  The Charter of Rights doesn't say "wear what I want when I want".  What next, can I challenge the requirement I have for safety toe shoes (from several orders), because the civie next door doesn't have to wear them to his job and Sobeys? 

I know other are thinking the same as you, like ERC and Jarnhamar, but I am one who says "enough is enough".  Not all change is good change, and earrings skirts and heels on men in uniform is NOT good change.  Canadian society also wants pot to be legal;  you want that be allowed next by serving members?

I've had my say, and appreciate differing opinions on this.  I guess I'll put on my Dinosaur sign and go to the corner now.   ;D
« Last Edit: October 02, 2016, 08:39:08 by Eye In The Sky »
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Quote from: Eye In The Sky
I know other are thinking the same as you, like ERC and Jarnhamar, but I am one who says "enough is enough".  Not all change is good change, and earrings skirts and heels on men in uniform is NOT good change.  Canadian society also wants pot to be legal;  you want that be allowed next by serving members?

I've had my say, and appreciate differing opinions on this.  I guess I'll put on my Dinosaur sign and go to the corner now.   ;D

Yea go play with your neanderthal trading cards with George!  ;)
I agree with you though how silly it is. I'll wear a dress and heels in protest  :nod:


What irks me about this story so to speak is that there's so much crap wrong with the CAF (forgive my blasphemousness) but this story has immediate responses from the MND and our commander. Yes without a doubt it's a big deal and absolutely an issue that needed to be addressed and fixed (which I'm sure will have a ripple effect to cadet units across the country guilty of this kind of stupidity) but what about our other huge issues?

What's the MND and commander have to say about
-ammunition shortages which effect training
-combat boot fiasco (anyone receiving disciplinary action over how much that crap show cost the CF?)
-uniform shortages (guys and girls and being given sewing kits and told to patch their stuff up)
-CFRC
-state of our vehicles
-state of our machineguns
-getting rid of the .50cal from the regular army  ???


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Offline daftandbarmy

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Yea go play with your neanderthal trading cards with George!  ;)
I agree with you though how silly it is. I'll wear a dress and heels in protest  :nod:


What irks me about this story so to speak is that there's so much crap wrong with the CAF (forgive my blasphemousness) but this story has immediate responses from the MND and our commander. Yes without a doubt it's a big deal and absolutely an issue that needed to be addressed and fixed (which I'm sure will have a ripple effect to cadet units across the country guilty of this kind of stupidity) but what about our other huge issues?

What's the MND and commander have to say about
-ammunition shortages which effect training
-combat boot fiasco (anyone receiving disciplinary action over how much that crap show cost the CF?)
-uniform shortages (guys and girls and being given sewing kits and told to patch their stuff up)
-CFRC
-state of our vehicles
-state of our machineguns
-getting rid of the .50cal from the regular army  ???

Their political bosses, and the public, don't know/care about the other stuff. That's the main reason.
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Offline MCG

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Court marshal.  Seems pretty simple.  QR & O Vol 1 (Ch 5, IIRC) basically states Officers and NCMs are responsible to know and adhere to any/all regulations pertinent to their duties, or words to that affect.  265 says no earring for males on duty.  Every Base/Wing Dress Instr I have ever seen fordbids earrings on males in duty.  I don't see the grey line.  The Charter of Rights doesn't say "wear what I want when I want".   
How did that work for the CF when removing headdress on parade for the padre was contested?  It does not matter how many times or in how many ways the CAF writes it, if we constrain a freedom (even one not explicitly listed in law) based on a gender then the court will side with the freedom.

What next, can I challenge the requirement I have for safety toe shoes (from several orders), because the civie next door doesn't have to wear them to his job and Sobeys? 
You are making a strawman.  This is not about being able to to anything one sees done on civi street.  This is about not being able to constrain people's behavior based on their gender.  You know this.

Canadian society also wants pot to be legal;  you want that be allowed next by serving members?
We may have no choice in the matter.  But, like alcohol, we will be able to restrict when service members can use in relation to time of duty or geography; NDA drunkeness laws will also continue to apply.  But, unless you are suggesting that pot will be authorized to one gender but not the other, then we are going down another red herring and strawman.

Not all change is good change, and earrings skirts and heels on men in uniform is NOT good change. 
You don't have to like it, but a head in the sand is not going to change it.  You don't want to see male soldiers in skirts?  Fine, then make your hill that nobody in the CAF wear skirts.  No skirts for men and no skirts for women.

Offline Humphrey Bogart

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How did that work for the CF when removing headdress on parade for the padre was contested?  It does not matter how many times or in how many ways the CAF writes it, if we constrain a freedom (even one not explicitly listed in law) based on a gender then the court will side with the freedom.
You are making a strawman.  This is not about being able to to anything one sees done on civi street.  This is about not being able to constrain people's behavior based on their gender.  You know this.
We may have no choice in the matter.  But, like alcohol, we will be able to restrict when service members can use in relation to time of duty or geography; NDA drunkeness laws will also continue to apply.  But, unless you are suggesting that pot will be authorized to one gender but not the other, then we are going down another red herring and strawman.
You don't have to like it, but a head in the sand is not going to change it.  You don't want to see male soldiers in skirts?  Fine, then make your hill that nobody in the CAF wear skirts.  No skirts for men and no skirts for women.

I actually like this idea, EVERYONE should be the same.  Same uniforms, same haircuts, same shoes, same everything.  If women can grow their hair out then men should be allowed as well.  Likewise, if women want earrings then men should be allowed earrings as well.  Either both have the option or nobody does.  Pretty simple? 

Nice true equality absent of any stupid cultural and societal biases. 

Offline CombatMacgyver

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I actually like this idea, EVERYONE should be the same.  Same uniforms, same haircuts, same shoes, same everything.  If women can grow their hair out then men should be allowed as well.  Likewise, if women want earrings then men should be allowed earrings as well.  Either both have the option or nobody does.  Pretty simple? 

Nice true equality absent of any stupid cultural and societal biases.

I completely agree.  I honestly advocate for Heinlen style equality (starship troopers).  Gender separation in the Army is ridiculous (in any form, including uniform standards).  It only works in garrison anyways, once you're sleeping in the ditch all bets are off.

Same thing goes for religious exceptions.  As far as I'm concerned that has no place in a secular institution.  As many Padres as I've met and liked, the trade is ludicrously out-of-date and I absolutely detest having to listen to prayers on parades, gatherings, etc.  The "they're more like a social worker" argument doesn't hold water with me because if that's the role then we should recruit social workers and be done with it.

My ideal Army is gender neutral and has done away with a lot of pointless traditions (a topic for another day perhaps)

On the other hand as much as this stuff annoys the hell out of me; the lack of ammunition and uniforms, the 30 year old ML, the useless LS, our joke of a Navy and Air Force and pathetically small Army..... (the list goes on) bother me a million times more.

Offline Coffee_psych

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A few of you have mentioned that the military is known to lag behind.   I am hoping that the military will be setting the precedent in a few years.  When human rights are upheld, seriously, and with respect, that's all that is needed to rise above.  Like the four major components of being successful in the army: Courage, Integrity, Loyalty, and Duty. 

If we work hard, and aren't lazy, we will get so much further. 

Yeah and these sexualized clothing instructions knocked us back into the 1970s...

Offline Jarnhamar

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Quote from: CombatMacgyver
Same thing goes for religious exceptions.  As far as I'm concerned that has no place in a secular institution.  As many Padres as I've met and liked, the trade is ludicrously out-of-date and I absolutely detest having to listen to prayers on parades, gatherings, etc.  The "they're more like a social worker" argument doesn't hold water with me because if that's the role then we should recruit social workers and be done with it.

Maybe we could go the other way with unit padres and make them the biggest meanest toughest members of a regiment. When they're not in the gym terrifying weights they're roaming the halls meriting out punishment for members who fail to recite the Reg­i­men­tal Cat­e­chisms, routine orders, battle honours and such  :camo:



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Offline George Wallace

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A few of you have mentioned that the military is known to lag behind.   I am hoping that the military will be setting the precedent in a few years.  When human rights are upheld, seriously, and with respect, that's all that is needed to rise above.  Like the four major components of being successful in the army: Courage, Integrity, Loyalty, and Duty. 

If we work hard, and aren't lazy, we will get so much further. 

Yeah and these sexualized clothing instructions knocked us back into the 1970s...

Seriously....I am waiting for the day that the military goes back to being ADULTS.  Since the mid-80's the Canadian military has increasingly expanded a philosophy of treating its members more like children than adults, and as a result, they have begun acting like children and not taking responsibility for their actions. 
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Offline MCG

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It is back in the news again to announce that all the offending booklets have been destroyed and that an investigation has been launched.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/inappropriate-leaflets-from-n-l-squadron-removed-destroyed-military

Offline daftandbarmy

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Maybe we could go the other way with unit padres and make them the biggest meanest toughest members of a regiment. When they're not in the gym terrifying weights they're roaming the halls meriting out punishment for members who fail to recite the Reg­i­men­tal Cat­e­chisms, routine orders, battle honours and such  :camo:

How about a sniper?

David Cooper was a Bisley shot and coached the 2 PARA rifle team - oh, and he passed P Company, Parachute Training and served in the Falklands War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Cooper_(chaplain)
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Offline LunchMeat

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I actually like this idea, EVERYONE should be the same.  Same uniforms, same haircuts, same shoes, same everything.  If women can grow their hair out then men should be allowed as well.  Likewise, if women want earrings then men should be allowed earrings as well.  Either both have the option or nobody does.  Pretty simple? 

Nice true equality absent of any stupid cultural and societal biases.

Her Majesty's Danish Armed Forces has very relaxed regulations. Beards are permitted for anyone, hair is not required to be kept short. I met a Danish Combat Engineer, he had a thick red beard and long hair tied back in a single braid. He was also jacked as hell. Looked pretty awesome too.
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Seriously....I am waiting for the day that the military goes back to being ADULTS.  Since the mid-80's the Canadian military has increasingly expanded a philosophy of treating its members more like children than adults, and as a result, they have begun acting like children and not taking responsibility for their actions.

That day is still in the future, but I think it may actually happen.

There was a mid 80s trend "maximum supervision" thing - in other words micro manage.
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Offline Loachman

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There was a mid 80s trend "maximum supervision" thing - in other words micro manage.

I do not remember being overly-supervised or micro-managed in the 1980s. I see an awful lot of that now, though, thanks mainly to modern technology. That was supposed to make life easier, not to enable commanders to do the job of subordinates one or two levels down.

Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Her Majesty's Danish Armed Forces has very relaxed regulations. Beards are permitted for anyone, hair is not required to be kept short. I met a Danish Combat Engineer, he had a thick red beard and long hair tied back in a single braid. He was also jacked as hell. Looked pretty awesome too.

They also have kickass soldiers, worthy of their Viking reputation.  Meanwhile in Canada, I get a Staph Infection on my face and have every Tom, Dick and Harry asking where my beard chit is.

Offline mariomike

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Yeah and these sexualized clothing instructions knocked us back into the 1970s...

Last time I wore a CAF uniform was during that decade, as a Reservist. So, it's not for me to comment on what's right for the youth of today.

But, as far as I am concerned, life back then may not have been as bad as you perhaps might think.

Let's just say they were different times.  :)
« Last Edit: October 05, 2016, 09:30:48 by mariomike »
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Offline Lightguns

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Last time I wore a CAF uniform was during that decade, as a Reservist. So, it's not for me to comment on the generation of today.

But, as far as I am concerned, life back then may not have been as bad as you perhaps might think.

Let's just say they were different times.  :)

All I remember from back then was being asked twice in TO airport to carry the bags of some civie.  Explaining that my summer short sleeve order was the uniform of a member of the military, they looked at me said that the uniform looked like a porter.  Although retired, I am in favor of sufficient bling for soldiers to not look like they are snooping for a tip at airports and train stations. 
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Offline Rifleman62

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I seem to recollect that during the 60's the West German Army issued hair nets for their soldiers to keep their in vogue long hair neat. Also saw Dutch soldiers with "pageboy" hair style under their berets with hair nets while on leave in Amsterdam in 1968. Got a photo somewhere of that.
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Offline Dimsum

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retired, I am in favor of sufficient bling for soldiers to not look like they are snooping for a tip at airports and train stations.

Don't worry, military members generally don't wear DEU (unless in Ottawa) enough to make the public think they're porters   >:D
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Offline George Wallace

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I seem to recollect that during the 60's the West German Army issued hair nets for their soldiers to keep their in vogue long hair neat. Also saw Dutch soldiers with "pageboy" hair style under their berets with hair nets while on leave in Amsterdam in 1968. Got a photo somewhere of that.

Early '80's, in the Bahn 41 Dutch mess, soldier at bar with hair down to their ***.  Turns around and has beard.  Another Heineken down range.
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Offline Lightguns

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Don't worry, military members generally don't wear DEU (unless in Ottawa) enough to make the public think they're porters   >:D

Never thought about that, but I really liked travelling out of uniform on the military dime!
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Nothing wrong with a little hair.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dyl0j3WU6Y

 ;D

And see the actual USN LSO's in this scene from the Final Countdown, at 1 min. 10 sec. That was actually accepted hair styles in the USN in the 70's. I don't think it would pass today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4bshTKiwYc

More seriously, however, I disagree that having "different" clothing or dress instructions for men and women is either proof of backwardness on the part of the CF or that "desexualized" instructions are something whose time has come.

I have many reasons for believing this to be the case:

1- Even though we live in "our" world, our members must also spend their private life in the society in general. We cannot ask for our female members to wear "men's" haircuts that, while found in society from time to time are even today the rare exception to what is generally worn by women in the Canadian public. To do so, would expose them to attracting attention to themselves in public. So they should be allowed to wear short haircuts if they wish (already the case) but should also be allowed to wear haircuts close to the lenght generally found in society, which is also already the case in the regulation.

2- As representatives of the state, we are required to project a good image in public. This means reasonably conservative dressing in public. A good test for this is what is generally accepted as business dress in society. And as of right now, our dress standards are pretty well in line with what is acceptable and done in society, including the difference between men and women dress and deportment.

This doesn't mean that some changes couldn't be done.

For instance, headdress: In the Navy, as an example, the ball cap and berets are already similar, why not the service cap too? If you look at cruise ships and merchant ships where officers wear caps, they use the same for men and women. This logic IMHO could apply to the Army and Air Force too - especially as they are moving to beret and/or wedge caps only.


Another instance would be longer haircuts/beards for men. It is perfectly acceptable for men to wear those in society, why not in uniform? I would only make exception for actual operational deployments, where short cuts and no beard could still be the rule.

Also, small studs and hearings, together with light make up is accepted for men today in business attire, so again here, some modification could be done for personnel not deployed operationally that would be in line with what is acceptable in society. Again, same rule for all operationally deployed: none of it.

Finally, as regards women uniforms, I personally would have no problem with the elimination of the skirts from the available attires (and my wife who served for 15 years wholeheartedly hated the damn things, which she only appreciated on those rare 30 degrees/100% humidity days). Considering the limited number of times we dress in CF these days, it would not be a great loss.

However, this doesn't mean adopting a single uniform (male pattern) for  all. The blouse should remain. In society today, business attire does not include male shirts or suits for women. Besides, no matter what, you would need two different cuts: the human body has not changed and men and women do not have the same usual body shape. We can't change that, except for loose fitting clothing such as the operational dress.

 

Offline mariomike

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All I remember from back then was being asked twice in TO airport to carry the bags of some civie.  Explaining that my summer short sleeve order was the uniform of a member of the military, they looked at me said that the uniform looked like a porter. 

Sorry to hear that.

I would have been so used to lifting and carrying the civies of TO themselves  on my career job that I would likely not have remembered such an insult 40 years later.  :)

Not to say one generation is better or worse than the other, just different.  :)
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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A few of you have mentioned that the military is known to lag behind.   I am hoping that the military will be setting the precedent in a few years.  When human rights are upheld, seriously, and with respect, that's all that is needed to rise above.  Like the four major components of being successful in the army: Courage, Integrity, Loyalty, and Duty. 

If we work hard, and aren't lazy, we will get so much further. 

Yeah and these sexualized clothing instructions knocked us back into the 1970s...

A few comments:

1.  You say 'we' and 'us'.  I recommend not including yourself in the "we" "us" stuff;  you've never served a day in the CAF. 

2.  "human rights" stuff.  The dress regs allow for accommodations for things like gender, religion, first nations, etc.  Do some homework before you haul out the wide brush.  The people in the CAF aren't ''gender-neutral", so not sure how you expect things like dress instructions to be. 

3.  The message that was attempted to be delivered was poorly constructed and worded, but there was elements of the intended message that were valid;  the chosen words were from the 'daft' category. 

 :2c:
« Last Edit: October 05, 2016, 16:11:30 by Eye In The Sky »
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Offline jollyjacktar

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They also have kickass soldiers, worthy of their Viking reputation.  Meanwhile in Canada, I get a Staph Infection on my face and have every Tom, Dick and Harry asking where my beard chit is.

And sailors too, was really impressed with their Viking crew on the NATO with us.  Love the Danes.