Author Topic: Desexualized clothing instructions fail for gender specific directions  (Read 22157 times)

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Offline MARS

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Re: Desexualized clothing instructions fail for gender specific directions
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2016, 20:15:25 »
I wish that the mom would have went to the Air Cadet Corp directly and voiced her concern over the directive instead of running to the media.

Guess she wanted her 15 min of fame.

Because its 2016.  [:)

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Offline Remius

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Re: Desexualized clothing instructions fail for gender specific directions
« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2016, 20:27:47 »
It takes up less time and space than saying "airmen and airwomen" every time!   8)  They should just make the leap and call us air-people.

Sky soldier.  Adding Sky makes you guys sound cooler. We need to waste money so let's change it.

Sky soldier
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Sky warrant
Master Sky warrant
Sky chief

Sky cadet
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Optio

Offline cavalryman

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Re: Desexualized clothing instructions fail for gender specific directions
« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2016, 20:36:23 »
Sky soldier.  Adding Sky makes you guys sound cooler. We need to waste money so let's change it.

Sky soldier
Sky corporal
Master Sky corporal
Sky sergeant
Sky warrant
Master Sky warrant
Sky chief

Sky cadet
Sky ensign
Sky lieutenant
Sky captain
Sky major
Lieutenant Sky colonel
Sky colonel
Sky Brigadier
Sky Brigadier 2
Lieutenant Sky marshal
Sky marshal
It's 2016... replace sky with aerospace at the least, so that we can have aerospace cadets for example

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Desexualized clothing instructions fail for gender specific directions
« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2016, 20:40:28 »
Sky soldier.  Adding Sky makes you guys sound cooler. We need to waste money so let's change it.

Sky soldier
Sky corporal
Master Sky corporal
Sky sergeant
Sky warrant
Master Sky warrant
Sky chief

Sky cadet
Sky ensign
Sky lieutenant
Sky captain
Sky major
Lieutenant Sky colonel
Sky colonel
Sky Brigadier
Sky Brigadier 2
Lieutenant Sky marshal
Sky marshal

God DAMMIT !! take that down before someone sees it and talks about it on Monday morning at the Good Idea Fairy O Gp!!

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Desexualized clothing instructions fail for gender specific directions
« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2016, 20:41:39 »
It's 2016... replace sky with aerospace at the least, so that we can have aerospace cadets for example

And the rank could be abbreviated A. Space Cdt  8)

Offline Dimsum

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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Desexualized clothing instructions fail for gender specific directions
« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2016, 23:29:13 »
Already done:



I bet his leather jacket is authorized for flying ops!   ;D

Offline Ostrozac

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Re: Desexualized clothing instructions fail for gender specific directions
« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2016, 23:42:38 »
Earrings on men - not in uniform - ever.

Admiral Sir Henry Morgan of the Royal Navy disagrees; earrings are a strong part of the naval tradition, right up there with the executive curl and the rum ration.


Offline Halifax Tar

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I sailed with a CO who authorized earrings on men for rounding the Cape of Good Hope.  He even got one himself, if I remember correctly.  The had to be removed before we got home.

Snr PA did the piercing and the men supplied their own earrings.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2016, 07:20:37 by Halifax Tar »
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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I don't believe a CO has the authority to authorize earrings, despite the wording of Ch 1, Para 8 of 265....but, hey, Snr Officers can do whatever the hell they want, right?  Screw the 'lead by example' stuff.  "I will do what I want, but you must follow the orders".  Awesome.

Offline George Wallace

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I don't believe a CO has the authority to authorize earrings, despite the wording of Ch 1, Para 8 of 265....but, hey, Snr Officers can do whatever the hell they want, right?  Screw the 'lead by example' stuff.  "I will do what I want, but you must follow the orders".  Awesome.

I think you missed the circumstances under which such permissions would be set.

Let me see now.  When you were green and you were in the Field and your issue kit sucked, did your CO authorize you to wear non-issue kit....American rain jacket perhaps?
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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American rain jackets, though, aren't weren't strictly prohibited in 265...they were authorized 'beyond the range control gate' or something like that in G-town IIRC; so, authorized by the CO or Base Cmdr or whoever said we could wear them (back in the day) after crossing range control;  we also had to remove them, and jungle boots, etc before re-entering the garrison (I recall getting reamed out with my US rain jacket on outside the Crse WO bullpin in the School when RSM Brown walked by  :nod: and said "that$@&*@&#@ jacket comes off when you hit Range Control, Cpl !!!!!).

Every Dress Instruction I have seen, to date, males with earrings on duty/in uniform has been explicitly not authorized. 

So...not quite apples to apples?
« Last Edit: October 01, 2016, 09:53:16 by Eye In The Sky »

Offline George Wallace

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You are still missing the circumstances and context.



and all that goes with ship's/unit's moral.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Well...what to say to that.  I'm glad I ended up at a Sqn that doesn't sail?   ;D

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and all that goes with ship's/unit's moral.
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Offline FSTO

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There was a reason why sailors have worn ear-rings.

This bit below from a association of funeral directors website

British seamen had a gold earring placed in their left ear when they first rounded the horn. It was in the left ear as that was the shoreward side in the outbound crossing and thus pointed to land, port, or, hopefully, safe harbor. The earring had an additional significance. If they died at sea, the gold earring was supposed to provide recompense for a proper burial.

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You are still missing the circumstances and context.



and all that goes with ship's/unit's moral.
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Sky soldier.  Adding Sky makes you guys sound cooler. We need to waste money so let's change it.

Sky soldier
Sky corporal
Master Sky corporal
Sky sergeant
Sky warrant
Master Sky warrant
Sky chief

Sky cadet
Sky ensign
Sky lieutenant
Sky captain
Sky major
Lieutenant Sky colonel
Sky colonel
Sky Brigadier
Sky Brigadier 2
Lieutenant Sky marshal
Sky marshal

Meanwhile, in the world's biggest air force: http://www.stripes.com/news/airmen-gender-based-job-titles-not-high-on-radar-1.416831
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Offline Blackadder1916

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Meanwhile, in the world's biggest air force: http://www.stripes.com/news/airmen-gender-based-job-titles-not-high-on-radar-1.416831

The difference being that the "M" word is being changed in job titles (MOS, trade, classification, specialty, rating . . .) in the other services.  Their ranks and rates will remain as before as well as certain traditional terminology (e.g. "Every Marine is a Rifleman" - rifleman is not an occupation).  Airman is a rank, not a job title.  Seaman is a rate (i.e. rank), not a job title - it will stay.

Even if it was high on the USAF's radar to change AFSCs to reflect this policy, there are not many that would be affected.
http://www.af.mil/AboutUs/FactSheets/Display/tabid/224/Article/104609/enlisted-afsc-classifications.aspx
Quote
8C0XX Airmen/Family Readiness Center
8H0XX Airman Dorm Leader
9F0XX First Term Airmen Center
9T0XX Basic Enlisted Airman

Now, what I thought was stupid was changing the rank title of RCAF air element uniform wearing Privates to Aviator.
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Offline MCG

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There has to be a 'line in the sand' somewhere, no?   For me, yes.  If not, what next?  Makeup and skirts are okay for males too?  Heels?  Where IS the line?  Nowhere?  5 years from now, the nose rings, or lip studs, or ear grommets WILL be allowed if we don't stop this crap at some point.  Earrings are a fine place to stop in my books.
Canadian society has decided it is okay for men to wear earrings.  I suspect that if the issue made its way to a court marshal today, the military would have a hard time winning the argument that male soldiers cannot wear earrings in situations where women can.  Hell, we are in the age of "choose your own gender and washroom."  We either get ahead of the wave and define the gender-free professional looking dress standards, or eventually those standards will be externally defined for us without concern for what we may think looks professional.  So yes, it is skirts & blouses as an option for everybody or for nobody.  Either everybody can choose between peak cap and peak hat, or everybody is directed to wear the same.

Anyway, the general in charge of the cadet program and the CDS have now joined the MDN in providing public comment.
Quote
Defence minister slams cadet letter referring to breasts as 'developing bits'
CTV News
30 Sep 2016

A letter outlining the dress code for young people interested in joining a Newfoundland air cadets squadron is offensive and "completely unacceptable," Canada's defence minister said Friday after learning that the document referred to girls' breasts as "developing bits."

Harjit Sajjan issued the blunt statement after a parent complained about a leaflet handed out recently by the 510 Lions Royal Canadian Air Cadet Squadron in St. John's.

A photo of the document provided by the military shows it outlines what the squadron considers appropriate civilian dress for cadets and lists the Four Bs: "boobs, belly, bums, boxers," going on to say that girls should wear shirts that do not "reveal their developing bits."

"This kind of language and the attitudes it represents are completely unacceptable in the cadets, in the Canadian Armed Forces and in our society," Sajjan said. "This shaming of young women is offensive to me as a person, as a father, and as the Minister of National Defence. It is completely inappropriate."

The strongly worded condemnation comes after the mother of a 13-year-old girl revealed the letter and told the CBC she believed it sexualized young girls and imposed different standards on them than their male counterparts.

The document also spells out guidelines for acceptable hair, makeup and body piercings.

Canada's top soldier, Gen. Jonathan Vance, also criticized the leaflet and said he would try to make sure materials distributed by cadet organizations show more respect to members of the Canadian Armed Forces.

"While we expect all cadets to dress appropriately and professionally, this letter used language that is completely unacceptable and not in keeping with Operation Honour," he said in a statement.

"This document does not reflect the high standard expected of the program. To the members of the 510 Lions and their parents, please accept my personal apologies."

The squadron did not respond to a request for comment.

Brig.-Gen. Kelly Woiden, commander of the national cadet program, said he has ordered that the document be rescinded and that regional cadet support units determine if they have material that uses similarly offensive language.

Woiden said the guidebook sends a bad message to young girls interested in joining the cadet program, which has about 1,100 squadrons representing 53,000 cadets. He believes it was produced locally as a way to introduce people to the cadet program.

"It's a very sexualized response -- the four Bs is not a vocabulary that we utilize to describe any kind of dress and deportment," he said in an interview form Ottawa, adding that he was trying to contact the officer in charge of the 510 squadron.

"It's not a good message and I find I'm personally a little bit angry at its content."

The revelation comes at a time when the Canadian Forces are stepping up efforts to stamp out what retired justice Marie Deschamps described as an "underlying sexual culture" in the military. In her report in April 2015, she described an environment that was hostile to women and left victims of sexual assault and harassment to fend for themselves. In response, military leaders promised to take immediate action to root out unacceptable behaviour.

Randall Garrison, the NDP defence critic, said the leaflet shows that more work is needed to shift what he called the "sexualized nature" of the military culture.

"Training is offered to all leaders -- including leaders in the reserves -- to help kind of eliminate this kind of approach to problems in the military," he said. "So obviously, somebody either hasn't had the training yet or failed the training."
http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/defence-minister-slams-cadet-letter-referring-to-breasts-as-developing-bits-1.3096718

Offline E.R. Campbell

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Canadian society has decided it is okay for men to wear earrings.  I suspect that if the issue made its way to a court marshal today, the military would have a hard time winning the argument that male soldiers cannot wear earrings in situations where women can.  Hell, we are in the age of "choose your own gender and washroom."  We either get ahead of the wave and define the gender-free professional looking dress standards, or eventually those standards will be externally defined for us without concern for what we may think looks professional.  So yes, it is skirts & blouses as an option for everybody or for nobody.  Either everybody can choose between peak cap and peak hat, or everybody is directed to wear the same.

Anyway, the general in charge of the cadet program and the CDS have now joined the MDN in providing public comment. http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/defence-minister-slams-cadet-letter-referring-to-breasts-as-developing-bits-1.3096718


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Offline Harris

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It takes up less time and space than saying "airmen and airwomen" every time!   8)  They should just make the leap and call us air-people.

How about "Village People"  [:)
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Quote from: MCG
Canadian society has decided it is okay for men to wear earrings.  I suspect that if the issue made its way to a court marshal today, the military would have a hard time winning the argument that male soldiers cannot wear earrings in situations where women can.  Hell, we are in the age of "choose your own gender and washroom."  We either get ahead of the wave and define the gender-free professional looking dress standards, or eventually those standards will be externally defined for us without concern for what we may think looks professional.  So yes, it is skirts & blouses as an option for everybody or for nobody.  Either everybody can choose between peak cap and peak hat, or everybody is directed to wear the same.

I think you're bang on the money with your observations MCG. Conservative as we may be the CAF is a reflection of Canadian society (even if it can be said we lag somewhat behind). Society today is moving towards someone picking their gender, picking their sex, picking their pronouns (just read a hillarious story about a university student changing his to your majesty) and whatever identity.   Someone who is physically male can use a female shower if they identify as female. They can dress in women's clothing. Drawing a line in the sand saying a man can't have an earing honestly seems like a losing battle. And we all know someone out there will try and push the limits. A male wearing a DEU skirt with a hajab over his turban with a long pony tail sticking out, why not if he identifies as all those?

If the CAF doesn't try and do some damage control and find a happier middle ground we're just going to be told what our dress standards by someone outside the military.

Lets start a revolution. One uniform, one rank system >:D
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Offline FSTO

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Lets start a revolution. One uniform, one rank system >:D

Sure, the Naval one! >:D

Offline MCG

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Sure, the Naval one! >:D
I'd sooner recommend something grey.  It is a neutral colour, so there would be less whining about whose identity is being most stepped upon by the others.  But ... this is getting a little off topic and there is a whole thread for discussing the aesthetic aspects of unification, de-unification, reunification, and other such tinkering.