Author Topic: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general  (Read 160291 times)

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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
« Reply #775 on: February 07, 2017, 17:01:59 »
 ;D
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
« Reply #776 on: February 07, 2017, 17:09:00 »
Phoenix is off the table as a military pay solution (at least for the near term).  CMP said as much at a town hall several months ago.
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Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general
« Reply #777 on: February 07, 2017, 17:11:44 »
Is there a reason why we couldn't provide a Commanding Officer to the Mali mission?

Is one of the conditions of providing a CO that we also have to provide a contingent of troops also?  The article states that the UN put out a request for CO's for the multinational UN mission - didn't mention anything about troop contributions also. 

Just curious.

We provided Dallaire no soldiers in Rwanda and he was stuck leaning on Bengalis to do his bidding (placing him in a very awkward position).  I wouldn't ever want to see another Canadian Officer placed in such a position.

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A couple of tidbits ...
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Offline MCG

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Don't forget, we've got the Phoenix pay system to look forward too soon when we're deployed;  surely that will make live easier for our families back home.
You do know that Phoenix is for civilian pay, right?

Offline recceguy

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IIRC, recently Trudeau said wherever we go from now on, it'll be a total package.

The Commander and their troops and a gaggle of government civies.

I envision two problems immediately.

1) It'll be a constant struggle deciding if it's the 'Commander's mission' or some civie government worker's.

2) crap is bound to hit the fan, but instead of the mandate, Canadian soldiers will end up protecting the civies.

 :2c:
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Online Chris Pook

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IIRC, recently Trudeau said wherever we go from now on, it'll be a total package.

The Commander and their troops and a gaggle of government civies.

I envision two problems immediately.

1) It'll be a constant struggle deciding if it's the 'Commander's mission' or some civie government worker's.

2) crap is bound to hit the fan, but instead of the mandate, Canadian soldiers will end up protecting the civies.

 :2c:

To be honest "soldiers protecting the civies" sounds about right.  The mission should be led by the civvies unless it is a full blown military coalition type effort.

The role of the Canadian military should be, first and foremost, to secure Canadians.  The Military Mission Commander's role then becomes telling the Civvies when it is time to pull pole because he/she can no longer guarantee their safety.
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Offline YZT580

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Not to worry.  If our civilians are from the same pattern as those I encountered there, they won't leave Bamako (which is a very well guarded, reasonably safe town).  All administrative decisions were made from the bar, oops sorry,  conference rooms of the hotels.  Military outside of the city are mainly on there own.  The majority of UN troops remain in lager as well.  Just ask the french!

Offline MarkOttawa

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milnews.ca:

Quote
A couple of tidbits ...

    "Canadian aid and foreign affairs officials have made repeated visits to Mali — including one visit just last week — as politicians continue to consider a long-awaited peace operation, the (Toronto) Star has learned...

The acute Norman Spector tweets the Crvena zvezda story as a go:
https://twitter.com/nspector4/status/839801919912632323

Quote
Norman Spector‏ @nspector4

Based on this 'exclusive' on the front page of *this* newspaper, my guess is that a peacekeeping mission to Mali is a go...

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Offline Retired AF Guy

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We provided Dallaire no soldiers in Rwanda and he was stuck leaning on Bengalis to do his bidding (placing him in a very awkward position).  I wouldn't ever want to see another Canadian Officer placed in such a position.

Sorry, not sure what you meant by, "[h]e was stuck leaning on Bengalis to do his bidding"?
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Online Chris Pook

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Not to worry.  If our civilians are from the same pattern as those I encountered there, they won't leave Bamako (which is a very well guarded, reasonably safe town).  All administrative decisions were made from the bar, oops sorry,  conference rooms of the hotels.  Military outside of the city are mainly on there own.  The majority of UN troops remain in lager as well.  Just ask the french!

There's your problem.  They need a proper drink - a nice glass of brown ale.
Over, Under, Around or Through.
Anticipating the triumph of Thomas Reid.

"One thing that being a scientist has taught me is that you can never be certain about anything. You never know the truth. You can only approach it and hope to get a bit nearer to it each time. You iterate towards the truth. You don’t know it.”  - James Lovelock

Conservative, n. A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others. [Ambrose Bierce, 1911]

Offline YZT580

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Spelling was never my forte.  Should be laager.  As for our troops being there to protect Canadian civilians.  Mali is a war zone.  There shouldn't be any civilians outside the wire at all and the UN has thousands of them already in place.  A few dozen or even hundreds from Canada won't make any difference at all until there is some sort of peace to administer. 

Online Chris Pook

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Spelling was never my forte.  Should be laager.  As for our troops being there to protect Canadian civilians.  Mali is a war zone.  There shouldn't be any civilians outside the wire at all and the UN has thousands of them already in place.  A few dozen or even hundreds from Canada won't make any difference at all until there is some sort of peace to administer.

No.  You were right the first time.  Lager simply means rest.  Tanks rest up in a lager, even when it is called a leaguer or even a Boer laager.   And lager beers are created by allowing the beer to rest and the yeast to settle.

As for the explicit role of Canadian troops - protecting civvies going outside of the wire in personal protection details (team to platoon size) doesn't seem unreasonable to me.  If the exercise is a "Whole of Government" exercise then it is the civvies that need to be out in front being seen to be "making a difference". 

Now, as to the particular case of Mali - I have no idea how much freedom of movement there is - or if it is better or worse than Northern Ireland 1969.  Or Israel, or Palestine, or any number of other countries where civilian life continues in the midst of armed conflict.
Over, Under, Around or Through.
Anticipating the triumph of Thomas Reid.

"One thing that being a scientist has taught me is that you can never be certain about anything. You never know the truth. You can only approach it and hope to get a bit nearer to it each time. You iterate towards the truth. You don’t know it.”  - James Lovelock

Conservative, n. A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others. [Ambrose Bierce, 1911]

Offline YZT580

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There is very little administration outside of Bamako, Timbuktu, and a couple of other major towns that are also garrison locales.  No airways, no navaids, and no controlled airspace except Bamako TMA.  No approaches either as they have stolen all the electronics and melted them down.  Mines are common and planted today where you walked yesterday.  Very few operational schools and clinics and those that are are well-guarded.  The north, is by far the worse.  Bamako itself has several dozen families sharing a single electric socket (when driving watch for extension cords), there is no sewage and the vast majority of locals are refugees from the north; living in tin huts and shacks.  Lots of NGOs running around sucking money and they live fairly well and every set of letters imaginable from the UN have a representative there.  If Canada really wants to spend money wisely, they will not send anyone other than soldiers and pilots.   

Offline daftandbarmy

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There is very little administration outside of Bamako, Timbuktu, and a couple of other major towns that are also garrison locales.  No airways, no navaids, and no controlled airspace except Bamako TMA.  No approaches either as they have stolen all the electronics and melted them down.  Mines are common and planted today where you walked yesterday.  Very few operational schools and clinics and those that are are well-guarded.  The north, is by far the worse.  Bamako itself has several dozen families sharing a single electric socket (when driving watch for extension cords), there is no sewage and the vast majority of locals are refugees from the north; living in tin huts and shacks.  Lots of NGOs running around sucking money and they live fairly well and every set of letters imaginable from the UN have a representative there.  If Canada really wants to spend money wisely, they will not send anyone other than soldiers and pilots.

Call me crazy, or anchaos junky, but that sounds like it coukd be a lot of
Fun :)
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Offline Thucydides

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For certain values of "fun". Otherwise you're in Afghanistan without the mountains, sans battlegroup.
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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I really have to say this:

The African mission, if it ever happens, will be a dogs breakfast. As soon as one of our soldiers defends themselves or others, crap will hit the fan. There will be much wailing "how could this happen?" amongst other teeth gnashing and abuse Canada tends to inflict on its military.

Stay. Out. Of. Africa.

My opinion only.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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My opinion only.

I think there's a few more of us that hold the same opinion. 
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Offline daftandbarmy

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No.  You were right the first time.  Lager simply means rest.  Tanks rest up in a lager, even when it is called a leaguer or even a Boer laager.   And lager beers are created by allowing the beer to rest and the yeast to settle.

As for the explicit role of Canadian troops - protecting civvies going outside of the wire in personal protection details (team to platoon size) doesn't seem unreasonable to me.  If the exercise is a "Whole of Government" exercise then it is the civvies that need to be out in front being seen to be "making a difference". 

Now, as to the particular case of Mali - I have no idea how much freedom of movement there is - or if it is better or worse than Northern Ireland 1969.  Or Israel, or Palestine, or any number of other countries where civilian life continues in the midst of armed conflict.

NI... we had 16 battalions of Infantry, plus atts and dets, in a place half the size of Vancouver Island and still couldn't stop the mess.

No, I don't see too many parallels here....
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline Hamish Seggie

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NI... we had 16 battalions of Infantry, plus atts and dets, in a place half the size of Vancouver Island and still couldn't stop the mess.

No, I don't see too many parallels here....

And that was in an English speaking western area.

yikes.
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Offline Spectrum

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I really have to say this:

The African mission, if it ever happens, will be a dogs breakfast. As soon as one of our soldiers defends themselves or others, crap will hit the fan. There will be much wailing "how could this happen?" amongst other teeth gnashing and abuse Canada tends to inflict on its military.

Stay. Out. Of. Africa.

My opinion only.

I'll agree to disagree on beards - but on this one, you are spot on.

Offline daftandbarmy

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And that was in an English speaking western area.

yikes.

Well, they apparently spoke some kind of English but most of us couldn't understand them :)
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

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Well, they apparently spoke some kind of English but most of us couldn't understand them :)

No problem.  The Lancs couldn't understand the Devons neither.
Over, Under, Around or Through.
Anticipating the triumph of Thomas Reid.

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Offline Rifleman62

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The last two sentences are the usual Trudeau jiberish.

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2017/03/25/un-peacekeeping-mission-possible-in-2017-trudeau-says.html

UN peacekeeping mission possible in 2017, Trudeau says

Trudeau has said the Liberal government is still looking at ways to make good on a pledge to support UN peacekeeping operations.

By The Canadian Press - Sat., March 25, 2017

OTTAWA—Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is not ruling out sending troops to a peacekeeping mission this year, even though Canada has not yet told the United Nations what it is up to.

“We have a difficult history in Africa as peacekeepers and we need to make sure that when we embark on any ... military mission, we make the right decisions about what we’re going to do, how we’re going to do it, and the kind of impact we’re going to have on the ground and on Canadians,” Trudeau told reporters Saturday.

“That’s a decision we’re not going to fast-track. We’re making it responsibly and thoughtfully.”

The Liberal government pledged last summer to allot up to 600 troops and 150 police officers for UN peacekeeping operations, plus $450 million over three years on peace and stability projects.

Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan originally promised to reveal where they were headed by the end of last year. Military officials and Canadian diplomats put some work into figuring out where Canadian troops could make an impact, but an announcement has yet to be made.

The Liberals ended up stalling their plans — including a request from the UN to lead the peacekeeping mission in Mali — as the federal government tried to figure out the priorities of U.S. President Donald Trump and his administration.

Jordan Owens, a spokeswoman for Sajjan, confirmed Saturday that Canada has not provided the UN with formal notice of its contributions, because the government has not yet decided what they will be.

Asked Saturday morning whether that means Canada will not be sending more blue helmets out in the world by the end of the year, Trudeau said he would not draw that conclusion.

“We continue to look very carefully at ways to move forward on the strong commitment we made on peacekeeping,” Trudeau said.

“We know that Canada has to play a strong and effective role on the world stage in ways that suit our capacities and we’re looking to make sure that that happens right,” he said.

Trudeau is on Parliament Hill for a rare weekend Liberal caucus meeting, where MPs are discussing the budget and how to make the most of their remaining time in Ottawa before they head home for the summer.

Liberal MPs who sit on the backbenches have recently been exercising the freedom Trudeau promised them with more free votes, such as when a majority of them voted earlier this month in favour of a bill that would bar health and life insurance companies from forcing clients to disclose the results of genetic testing. That happened even though cabinet voted against it and Trudeau said it was unconstitutional.

However, the prime minister said Saturday that his caucus is more united than ever.

“I’ve been around the Liberal party an awfully long time, as you all know, and I’ve never seen a caucus as strongly united in our approach and our values,” Trudeau said on his way to the meeting, which was in its second day.

“One of the great strengths of the Liberal party is there is always a range of perspectives that allow us to represent the range of perspectives of Canadians,” he said.
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