Author Topic: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general  (Read 168903 times)

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Offline Humphrey Bogart

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I think the issue would be the "peacekeeping" label and government support, when we all know it's another COIN mission like Afghanistan, without tanks, artillery, robust engineer support, aviation, etc...

Who cares what they label it.  If calling it "peacekeeping" keeps us in the game and off the bench, so be it.

We've got seasoned military leadership at the very top who I trust will provide the government with sound advice.

We don't pick our missions, they get picked for us.  We've also got a military perfectly suited for this sort of operation. 

I don't agree with the narrative that the government has taken their eye off ISIS. We've got a substantial SOTF and Intelligence apparatus helping combat that fight but the cancer is already there and being dealt with by other players.  A mission in the Sahel serves the purpose of preventing the cancer from spreading.  The last thing we need is another Afghanistan with AQIM given free reign over a plot of land.

I'm all for a little brushfire war if it keeps the rats off balance and contained to the MENA.  AQIM or ISIS, what's the difference?  Same shat, different pile. 

We also don't need Tanks for this theatre, far too burdensome logistically and ill suited for the Northern portions of the country where the fighting is.  An all wheels Infantry Battlegroup with dedicated Tactical Aviation is what's required.  Primary method of insertion is tan cadillacs.  The return of TOW couldn't have come at a better time either.  A very good weapon to blow rats out of little caves in the moonscape.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2016, 11:59:41 by Humphrey Bogart »

Offline Teager

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Yes, selling the mission as something it is not is misleading the public in the worst way. It's using the military as a cheap political exercise.

This article from the BBC gives me a great deal of concern. In addition, I have no faith that a "robust" ROE will be part of the plan.

This article gives a better overview of how bad it is. Although a bit older. It's pretty much Afghanistan by the sounds of it.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-34812600

Offline Altair

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This article gives a better overview of how bad it is. Although a bit older. It's pretty much Afghanistan by the sounds of it.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-34812600
Good. Let's go try to make it better. You know, like doing our jobs.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Read up some on the past history of the UN;  ridiculous ROEs, TO & E restrictions, red tape between field commanders and the UN HQ desk commandos.  People who've been around for a while have little trust in the "UN Peacekeeping" stuff for a reason.  Find a few folks who were in Rwanda or UNPROFOR as examples, and talk to them for an hour.

The only time you have too much gas is when you're on fire.

Offline recceguy

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It's not the mission, as others have said. It's the way our present government is trying to sell this as peacekeeping. Canadians think, pressed combat, spiffy blue berets, blue ascots and white UN marked vehicles. They carry rifles for the dogs. Canadians are the great UN negotiators that'll have the French and ISIS living hand in hand after six months. That's what Canadians think when the government says peacekeeping. Canadians are stupid and will have a very rude awakening when things go south. It's all Trudeau kumbaya crap and soldiers are, probably, going to die to satisfy his ego and arrogance. Anyone with a schmick of real world smarts knows that playing that kind of bait and switch with Canadians, typically, does not end well. However, the PM has never operated in the real world, so how would he know anyway.
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Offline Altair

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Read up some on the past history of the UN;  ridiculous ROEs, TO & E restrictions, red tape between field commanders and the UN HQ desk commandos.  People who've been around for a while have little trust in the "UN Peacekeeping" stuff for a reason.  Find a few folks who were in Rwanda or UNPROFOR as examples, and talk to them for an hour.
I've read shake hands with the devil. Good enough for you?

UN peacekeeping > sweeping tents and counting inventory in a stores room at the slowest possible pace.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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I agree with recceguy.  The notion of us peacekeeping is a bullshit trick sold to the public to reinforce the old media driving "peacekeepers not soldiers"  crap.

Personally I don't care what they call it,  I'm glad we're getting in the fight. Among other things a mission like this will help retention.  I know of at least four soldiers who put VRs on hold because they want to deploy. 

But just to add,  deploying as peacekeepers will most likely result in stupid roe's and get Canadians killed.

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Offline Chris Pook

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A line from John Milton - oft quoted in barracks.

"They also serve who only stand and wait."

- On His Blindness

When the alternatives are considered, waiting may not be such a bad option.
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Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Read up some on the past history of the UN;  ridiculous ROEs, TO & E restrictions, red tape between field commanders and the UN HQ desk commandos.  People who've been around for a while have little trust in the "UN Peacekeeping" stuff for a reason.  Find a few folks who were in Rwanda or UNPROFOR as examples, and talk to them for an hour.



EITS,

I believe the big problem we face as Canadians is that we tend to view everything through our own lense of Western cultural and political baggage. 

I'm including Canadian military members in this as well.  We are all political pawns, everything we do is a political calculation.  This is Clausewitz 101.

I believe every operation we are currently involved in is a worthwhile one and in our government's broader national interests.   Keeping AQIM out of Southern Mali is a worthwhile mission and one of a number of operations in a larger campaign combating islamic extremism.  It's a worthwhile cause.

It's not the mission, as others have said. It's the way our present government is trying to sell this as peacekeeping. Canadians think, pressed combat, spiffy blue berets, blue ascots and white UN marked vehicles. They carry rifles for the dogs. Canadians are the great UN negotiators that'll have the French and ISIS living hand in hand after six months. That's what Canadians think when the government says peacekeeping. Canadians are stupid and will have a very rude awakening when things go south. It's all Trudeau kumbaya crap and soldiers are, probably, going to die to satisfy his ego and arrogance. Anyone with a schmick of real world smarts knows that playing that kind of bait and switch with Canadians, typically, does not end well. However, the PM has never operated in the real world, so how would he know anyway.

Lets not pretend the previous government was any better, at least we don't have a bunch of control freaks running the zoo anymore.  I blame the present fighter jet/shipbuilding fiasco on the Conservatives.  They had 10 years in government to pull the trigger and couldn't do it.  The Harper government should have prescribed themselves some little blue pills, might have helped the decision making cycle.

As far as National Defence is concerned, the Liberals aren't as gun shy to make the hard decisions.  Whether we agree with them or not.

Offline Altair

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A line from John Milton - oft quoted in barracks.

"They also serve who only stand and wait."

- On His Blindness

When the alternatives are considered, waiting may not be such a bad option.
They will cease to serve those who only stand and wait.

Quote from Altair.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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EITS,

I believe the big problem we face as Canadians is that we tend to view everything through our own lense of Western cultural and political baggage. 

I'm including Canadian military members in this as well.  We are all political pawns, everything we do is a political calculation.  This is Clausewitz 101.

I believe every operation we are currently involved in is a worthwhile one and in our government's broader national interests.   Keeping AQIM out of Southern Mali is a worthwhile mission and one of a number of operations in a larger campaign combating islamic extremism.  It's a worthwhile cause.

My concern is with things like ROE and 'what kit can we bring'...time will tell...
The only time you have too much gas is when you're on fire.

Offline Humphrey Bogart

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My concern is with things like ROE and 'what kit can we bring'...time will tell...

I agree that we should be concerned with this but I've got faith in the CoC.  The present CDS was seasoned in the Balkans and Afghanistan.  He is acutely aware of the dangers the troops will face.  This isn't 1992, it's 2016 and we've got combat seasoned Officers and Senior NCOs leading the military now and I trust them to set us up for success. 

Offline ModlrMike

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I agree that we should be concerned with this but I've got faith in the CoC.  The present CDS was seasoned in the Balkans and Afghanistan.  He is acutely aware of the dangers the troops will face.  This isn't 1992, it's 2016 and we've got combat seasoned Officers and Senior NCOs leading the military now and I trust them to set us up for success.

To be clear, it's not the military I don't trust.
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Offline jollyjacktar

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It's not the mission, as others have said. It's the way our present government is trying to sell this as peacekeeping. Canadians think, pressed combat, spiffy blue berets, blue ascots and white UN marked vehicles. They carry rifles for the dogs. Canadians are the great UN negotiators that'll have the French and ISIS living hand in hand after six months. That's what Canadians think when the government says peacekeeping. Canadians are stupid and will have a very rude awakening when things go south. It's all Trudeau kumbaya crap and soldiers are, probably, going to die to satisfy his ego and arrogance. Anyone with a schmick of real world smarts knows that playing that kind of bait and switch with Canadians, typically, does not end well. However, the PM has never operated in the real world, so how would he know anyway.

You forgot to add "for the troops", after "does not end well."

Offline Thucydides

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I've read shake hands with the devil. Good enough for you?

No.

Try listening to the opinions of people like me who have been there/done that. We have reasons to be concerned about Gerald Butts' plans for us.
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Offline recceguy

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No.

Try listening to the opinions of people like me who have been there/done that. We have reasons to be concerned about Gerald Butts' plans for us.

This.   :goodpost:
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Offline jmt18325

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So, now that the TOW missile has been reintroduced....we wouldn't happen to have some air defense systems laying around that we declared surplus, would we?

Offline Castus

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So, now that the TOW missile has been reintroduced....we wouldn't happen to have some air defense systems laying around that we declared surplus, would we?

Wouldn't that be a sweet notion? Then we only need to grab a regiment's worth of SPGs, acquire more tanks and beef up our logistical capabilities. Easy peasy.

Offline PuckChaser

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So, now that the TOW missile has been reintroduced....we wouldn't happen to have some air defense systems laying around that we declared surplus, would we?

Only if the government finds a magical capability gap.

Oh wait.... they only use that term for political goals, not actual capability gaps.

Offline Altair

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Only if the government finds a magical capability gap.

Oh wait.... they only use that term for political goals, not actual capability gaps.
The politics thread desperately needs a return.
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Offline Bird_Gunner45

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So, now that the TOW missile has been reintroduced....we wouldn't happen to have some air defense systems laying around that we declared surplus, would we?

No, but there are lots of perfectly good Avengers in the USA looking for a good home. Some of them may still have the Canadian insignia on them from the failed lease for Op PODIUM.

Offline PuckChaser

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The politics thread desperately needs a return.

Some people couldn't be adults, so we lost it. Kinda like alcohol on ships.

Offline jmt18325

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I think that's the one area (air defense) that we're really lacking in.  Maybe people at DND will push hard enough.  One can only hope.

Offline daftandbarmy

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I think that's the one area (air defense) that we're really lacking in.  Maybe people at DND will push hard enough.  One can only hope.

"How could they possibly be Japanese planes?"

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This from "multiple sources" via CBC.ca ...
Quote
One of the Trudeau government's contributions to peace and stability in Africa is expected to include a revamped training mission in Niger that has been — until now — the purview of Canada's highly secretive special forces, CBC News has learned.

Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan was slated to arrive in Africa on Tuesday on a fact-finding mission for future peacekeeping operations.

But his assessment comes as the Liberal government is also considering a separate request to turn a special forces capacity-building mission, known as Operation Naberius, into a regular army training mission for troops in the war-torn country, multiple sources tell CBC News.

The switch could happen as early as September, not long after Sajjan attends a major international UN peacekeeping conference in London.

In an interview, Sajjan confirmed the proposal is being being debated.

"We are looking at that mission," Sajjan told the CBC. "There has been a really great impact made. And before we make a decision on that mission and what needs to be done, if there are other resources we need to bring to the table; we need to do the full analysis."

The operation has flown almost entirely under the radar since it was instituted over three years ago by the former Conservative government, which at the time faced repeated calls from the international community to help beat back Islamic militants, who have taken over a large swath of territory in neighbouring Mali ...
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