Author Topic: Canadian Army headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general  (Read 137972 times)

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Offline PuckChaser

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12 UN peacekeepers killed in the first 5.5 months of 2016 in Mali. http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=53977

And I would bet my last dollar, Mali is where we are going.
Especially with the"fight terrorism" rhetoric coming out of the government now. The same government who pulled the CF-18s from fighting terrorism.

Offline rmc_wannabe

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Especially with the"fight terrorism" rhetoric coming out of the government now. The same government who pulled the CF-18s from fighting terrorism.

Ah, but fighting THAT terrorism isn't under a UN flag and thus wont get a seat at the UNSC. Or so I'm told... ::)
« Last Edit: July 16, 2016, 19:24:42 by rmc_wannabe »
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Offline Thucydides

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Back to the Africa mission I'm not sure where the government thinks we're getting all these soldiers but I'm glad to read this story. I've never been on a UN mission and much respect to everyone who has (understanding how shitty and painful they were) but this feels meaningful to me. 

Not knowing a deployment date means plenty of time to cry about black boots and green tacvests  ;D

I appreciate your enthusiasm, but the fact of the matter is EVERY UN mission has been a waste of time at best and a failure at worst, and this fact needs to be repeated and broadcast at every opportunity. UN peacekeepers in the Sinai desert? Kicked out by Nasser so he could prosecute a war against Israel. UN in Cyprus? Political stasis since 1974, if not since 1963 when we first arrived. Golan Heights? Target practice for various groups. Israel routinely flys over the Heights to bomb Hezbollah in Syria and Lebanon when advanced weapons shipments are detected. UNPOFOR? The is a reason it switched to IFOR. Rwanda? Didn't even slow down the Genocide. And that is a top of the head list of missions that Canada was involved in. the record of other UN missions we didn't take part in is even worse.

What the missions did accomplish wasn't what the UN professed them to be about, but in the case of Cyprusand the other ME missions, they acted as an Economy of Force mission so that Canada's other thousands of deployed troops, airmen and sailors could focus on the USSR and keeping the Cold War from going Hot.

Sadly, the media has no knowledge or understanding of this, and I doubt that Gerald Butts has any interest in this either. Kissing up to third world dictators in the UN seems to have irresistible appeal for Butts and his ilk, especially as they can sell this as showing Canadian
"influence" in the world. The lack of any tangible results isn't going to get in the way of pushing for more UN "Peacekeeping missions", so all *we* can hope for is that our own military leadership will insist on a tangible mission parameter (including measurable outcomes), an exit strategy and robust ROE's (essentially IFOR rather than UNPOFOR).
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Tow Tripod

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Wouldn't it be a reasonable demand of the Canadian people to ask why the Government of Canada are sending Canadian Soldiers with Blue Helmets to Africa?
Where is the Peace to keep?
I don't get this....
Will this be another Stop or I will tell you to stop again mission....?
I don't know but I sure would like much more info...
Out...
TOW TRIPOD

Offline PuckChaser

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That's for the opposition to demand explanation, and for the media to throw softball questions at Trudeau to get no real answer. The actual answer is trying to score political points for reelection/UNSC seat election. The CAF again becomes a political prop for the Liberals.

Can't wait to see the LSVWs on the side of the road in Africa broke down, in their shiny white paint. Capability gap? Nah, that's just a buzzword for fulfilling political promises.

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Remind me again which of the African missions is a pure peacekeeping between two States? Ethiopia and Eritrea is the only one I can think of.

Offline Lightguns

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Wouldn't it be a reasonable demand of the Canadian people to ask why the Government of Canada are sending Canadian Soldiers with Blue Helmets to Africa?
Where is the Peace to keep?
I don't get this....
Will this be another Stop or I will tell you to stop again mission....?
I don't know but I sure would like much more info...
Out...

Quite a few political props will have to die before Canadians will think of UN peacekeeping for what it truly is.  Yugo should have buried the peacekeeping myth for good but the then current government, later opposition and Canadian media could not let go, as specially since it became a conservative beating stick. 
Done, 34 years, 43 days complete, got's me damn pension!

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Quite a few political props will have to die before Canadians will think of UN peacekeeping for what it truly is.  Yugo should have buried the peacekeeping myth for good but the then current government, later opposition and Canadian media could not let go, as specially since it became a conservative beating stick.
Made possible in part by governments underplaying deaths & strife in Yugo while it was going on - methinks any deaths on any mission in Africa now will be next-to-impossible to keep under the radar in the same way.

Remind me again which of the African missions is a pure peacekeeping between two States? Ethiopia and Eritrea is the only one I can think of.
No more U.N. mission there as of July 2008 -- and even there, there's not a ton of peace being kept.  Re:  country vs. country missions in Africa, not many (maybe UNAMID if you stretch it) according to the U.N.'s list:
  • MINURSO United Nations Mission for the Referendum in Western Sahara -- Morocco vs. Frente Popular para la Liberación de Saguia el-Hamra y de Río de Oro (Frente POLISARIO)
  • MINUSCA United Nations Multidimensional Integrated Stabilization Mission in the Central African Republic -- "Mission will prioritize the protection of civilians and facilitation of political process, including implementation of provisions of the Agreement on Cessation of Hostilities, and setting up a mechanism to investigate violations"
  • MINUSMA United Nations Multidimensional Integrated Stabilization Mission in Mali -- "support political processes in that country and carry out a number of security-related tasks.  The Mission was asked to support the transitional authorities of Mali in the stabilization of the country and implementation of the transitional roadmap."
  • MONUSCO United Nations Organization Stabilization Mission in the Democratic Republic of the Congo -- "the protection of civilians, humanitarian personnel and human rights defenders under imminent threat of physical violence and to support the Government of the DRC in its stabilization and peace consolidation efforts"
  • UNAMID African Union/United Nations Hybrid operation in Darfur -- "contributing to security for humanitarian assistance, monitoring and verifying implementation of agreements, assisting an inclusive political process, contributing to the promotion of human rights and the rule of law, and monitoring and reporting on the situation along the borders with Chad and the Central African Republic (CAR)"
  • UNISFA United Nations Interim Security Force for Abyei -- "monitoring the flashpoint border between north and south and facilitating the delivery of humanitarian aid, and is authorized to use force in protecting civilians and humanitarian workers in Abyei.  UNISFA’s establishment came after the Government of Sudan and the Sudan People’s Liberation Movement (SPLM) reached an agreement in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia, to demilitarize Abyei and let Ethiopian troops to monitor the area."
  • UNMIL United Nations Mission in Liberia -- "support the implementation of the ceasefire agreement and the peace process; protect United Nations staff, facilities and civilians; support humanitarian and human rights activities; as well as assist in national security reform, including national police training and formation of a new, restructured military"
  • UNMISS United Nations Mission in the Republic of South Sudan -- "Following the crisis which broke out in South Sudan in December 2013, the Security Council, by its resolution 2155 (2014) of 27 May 2014, reinforced UNMISS and reprioritized its mandate towards the protection of civilians, human rights monitoring, and support for the delivery of humanitarian assistance and for the implementation of the Cessation of Hostilities Agreement"
  • UNOCI United Nations Operation in Côte d'Ivoire -- "Following the 2010 Presidential election and the ensuing political crisis in Côte d'Ivoire, UNOCI has remained on the ground to protect civilians, provide good offices, support the Ivorian Government in disarmament, demobilization and reintegration (DDR) of former combatants as well as on security sector reform, and monitor and promote human rights"
« Last Edit: July 18, 2016, 13:22:48 by milnews.ca »
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Offline FSTO

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The group above don't seem to be in the realm of classic blue helmet peacekeeping.

Offline daftandbarmy

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The group above don't seem to be in the realm of classic blue helmet peacekeeping.

Is there any example of 'classic' peacekeeping?
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Offline Lightguns

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Is there any example of 'classic' peacekeeping?

Cyprus, 1975 to 1993 for Canada, holiday in the Med with one full mag stored in your pocket and trading peanut butter for stuff with the Turks.  And the beaches and European women on the beaches........  Nobody dies but lots of hangovers make you feel like dying.  That kind of classic peace keeping.  And smuggling all the cheap impure gold. 
Done, 34 years, 43 days complete, got's me damn pension!

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MINUSMA United Nations Multidimensional Integrated Stabilization Mission in Mali -- "support political processes in that country and carry out a number of security-related tasks.  The Mission was asked to support the transitional authorities of Mali in the stabilization of the country and implementation of the transitional roadmap."

Mail sounds like Afghanistan. If the PM sends us there, we'll be mired in another insurgent war for years. Nothing blue beret about this one and no peace to keep or make.
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Offline George Wallace

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Cyprus, 1975 to 1993 for Canada, holiday in the Med with one full mag stored in your pocket and trading peanut butter for stuff with the Turks.  And the beaches and European women on the beaches........  Nobody dies but lots of hangovers make you feel like dying.  That kind of classic peace keeping.  And smuggling all the cheap impure gold.

And Cyprus 1974?  What are your fine words on that event? 
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Offline Lightguns

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My fine words would be; how can two NATO countries go to war with one another through two other NATO countries there to keep them from war and everyone be caught be surprised?  But that's off topic. 
Done, 34 years, 43 days complete, got's me damn pension!

Offline Old Sweat

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My fine words would be; how can two NATO countries go to war with one another through two other NATO countries there to keep them from war and everyone be caught be surprised?  But that's off topic.

It originally was an internal Cypriot matter, but then . . . Try getting ahold of this, which was written by the COS UNFICYP.

Henn, Brigadier Francis. A Business of Some Heat: The United Nations Force in Cyprus Before & During the 1974 Turkish Invasion, (Barnsley, 2004)

Offline FSTO

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Is there any example of 'classic' peacekeeping?

How about we ask the current PM what classic peacekeeping looks like. I would be interested what Gerald Butts has to say.

Offline Lightguns

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It originally was an internal Cypriot matter, but then . . . Try getting ahold of this, which was written by the COS UNFICYP.

Henn, Brigadier Francis. A Business of Some Heat: The United Nations Force in Cyprus Before & During the 1974 Turkish Invasion, (Barnsley, 2004)

ebook, for those with a large enough screen.

https://books.google.com.cy/books/about/A_Business_of_Some_Heat.html?id=waZtAAAAMAAJ
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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"Classic peacekeeping" holds a different mental image for the average Canadian, who knows a few things about the Canadian military such as (1) our Air Force is centered around the Snowbirds (2) most people who join the army are really joining our peacekeeping forces.   ;D

When the Liberals and average Canadian think of peacekeeping, they think of images like this:



The don't even like this one very much;  why is that Peacekeeper carrying a weapon!!!    :panic:



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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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"Classic peacekeeping" holds a different mental image for the average Canadian, who knows a few things about the Canadian military such as (1) our Air Force is centered around the Snowbirds (2) most people who join the army are really joining our peacekeeping forces.   ;D

You forgot (3) We have a Navy ?? ?? ??     [:D

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Mail sounds like Afghanistan. If the PM sends us there, we'll be mired in another insurgent war for years. Nothing blue beret about this one and no peace to keep or make.
With the French troops already doing their thing (sans blue berets) only able to help U.N. folks "if requested by the Sec-Gen" ...
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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You forgot (3) We have a Navy ?? ?? ??     [:D

I didn't, but I was giving examples of the average citizen.  I'm not sure they know about our Navy.  "Why do we need one of those?"   8)
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Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Why the distaste from everyone for this potential operation?

If we go in to Mali, I'd expect a fairly robust ROE.  It's also a good opportunity to stick it to some Islamists. 

Better yet, it helps the Army keep the blade sharp.  If you didn't sign up for a little adventure with the potential for misadventure, what did you sign up for?

Offline PuckChaser

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I think the issue would be the "peacekeeping" label and government support, when we all know it's another COIN mission like Afghanistan, without tanks, artillery, robust engineer support, aviation, etc...

Offline Thucydides

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Cyprus, 1975 to 1993 for Canada, holiday in the Med with one full mag stored in your pocket and trading peanut butter for stuff with the Turks.  And the beaches and European women on the beaches........  Nobody dies but lots of hangovers make you feel like dying.  That kind of classic peace keeping.  And smuggling all the cheap impure gold.

Just to reiterate: http://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,123590.msg1445284.html#msg1445284

And the distaste for the proposed mission in Africa stems from it being sold for something that it clearly isn't (peacekeeping), the loss of focus against real threats (ISIS, Russia, the potential for armed conflict in the South China Sea) and the fear that in order to make the propaganda point that it is peacekeeping, our forces will be held to a "peacekeeping ROE" and equipped for that mission and not for the very real contingencies of combat against insurgent forces.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline ModlrMike

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Yes, selling the mission as something it is not is misleading the public in the worst way. It's using the military as a cheap political exercise.

This article from the BBC gives me a great deal of concern. In addition, I have no faith that a "robust" ROE will be part of the plan.
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