Author Topic: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia  (Read 82776 times)

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Offline YZT580

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #450 on: April 14, 2017, 22:13:04 »
The odds of a follow-on group from Canada range from remote to non-existent.  How would we get them there?  On our C-17s you say, so who flies escort?  By ship, you say?  Whose, says I?  And what will the opposing subs be doing in the meantime.  We don't have a merchant navy to draw on and we don't have the navy to protect them.  You had better hope that the Brits, French and Germans can do better in getting reinforcements on scene than they say they can because that Canadian group on site will be the only Canucks on site for a significant length of time.

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #451 on: April 15, 2017, 10:19:07 »
YZT580: BZ
:bowing:

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #452 on: April 15, 2017, 10:24:25 »
The odds of a follow-on group from Canada range from remote to non-existent.  How would we get them there?  On our C-17s you say, so who flies escort?  By ship, you say?  Whose, says I?  And what will the opposing subs be doing in the meantime.  We don't have a merchant navy to draw on and we don't have the navy to protect them.  You had better hope that the Brits, French and Germans can do better in getting reinforcements on scene than they say they can because that Canadian group on site will be the only Canucks on site for a significant length of time.

Why we would "RENT" them of course......from our European NATO allies.   [:D

I am sure that is what all our 'Leaders' with no military experience, nor any study of history and economics, seem to think.  :dunno:
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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #453 on: April 15, 2017, 20:12:06 »
The odds of a follow-on group from Canada range from remote to non-existent.  How would we get them there?  On our C-17s you say, so who flies escort?  By ship, you say?  Whose, says I?  And what will the opposing subs be doing in the meantime.  We don't have a merchant navy to draw on and we don't have the navy to protect them.  You had better hope that the Brits, French and Germans can do better in getting reinforcements on scene than they say they can because that Canadian group on site will be the only Canucks on site for a significant length of time.

*Red Storm Rising* Battle of the Atlantic scenario;  USN and NATO work to keep the SLOCs open so reinforcements can make it.  Better reinforce Iceland quick.   :nod:
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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #454 on: April 24, 2017, 16:13:58 »
There is enough airliners and cargo carriers to get the troops and some supplies to France quickly and the UK could provide fighter escort for the Eastern part. But they will have no heavy equipment. In a perfect world you would have equipment stored at numerous bases including tanks, trucks and APC's, and you would have similar in Canada for training and the incoming troops could fall unto that equipment that has been maintained by contractors and a small number of troops. That equipment could be held there on a lease basis, with a caveat that if Canada does not commit the troops in a crisis, the leaser can hand over the equipment to someone who will.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #455 on: April 25, 2017, 09:05:14 »
*Red Storm Rising* Battle of the Atlantic scenario;  USN and NATO work to keep the SLOCs open so reinforcements can make it.  Better reinforce Iceland quick.   :nod:

I was deployed to Arctic Norway with UK AMF (L) when Canada cancelled it's sealift reinforcement option, in 1986 I think?

Yeah, we had a great reputation about that time. I think that was the year I changed my accent.

Edited following some Google-fu to add the wiki about the CAST debacle. Sad reading, indeed!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Air-Sea_Transportable_Brigade_Group
« Last Edit: April 25, 2017, 09:13:45 by daftandbarmy »
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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #456 on: May 09, 2017, 07:00:12 »
This on how the troops can spend down time & what to expect - highlights mine ...
Quote
As Canada prepares to stand up a multi-national NATO battle group here this summer, army commanders have come up with a plan to prevent their soldiers being exploited by the Kremlin via “honey pots,” “gentlemen’s clubs” and other such temptations: hockey, hockey and more hockey.

The plan is for the 450 Canadian troops bound for Latvia as part of a tripwire against Russian aggression to be confined to their base, about a half-hour drive northeast of Riga, for the first few months after they arrive. This is partly because there will be much work to be done before the unit can be declared combat-ready. But there are also grave concerns that Russia will try to undermine the Canadian mission by attacking it with “kompromat” and “dezinformatsiya,” as it has already done with a similar NATO enhanced forward-presence battle group from Germany which is up and running in neighbouring Lithuania.

Even after the newcomers, mostly drawn from 1 Battalion, Princess Patricias Canadian Light Infantry, are certified sometime in August as operationally effective, they will be allowed off base only on “supervised cultural days,” the commander, Lt.-Col. Wade Rutland, said after leading a live-fire exercise last week involving other NATO forces training in Latvia. Those excursions may include visits to museums, theatres, parks and restaurants.

But the centrepiece of the leisure activities will be hockey games against each other and against Latvian military and civilian teams
at the four rinks near the base the Canadians will share with the Latvian army and a small number of soldiers from Albania, Italy, Spain, Slovenia and Poland.

“There will be no 48-hour weekend passes,” the colonel said, referring to the good old days during the Cold War when Canadians stood watch against the Red Army in Germany.

German troops in Lithuania have already been targeted twice by Russian propagandists through what has become known as “hybrid warfare.” Within days of their arrival emails claiming German troops had raped an underage Lithuanian girl were sent to a leading Lithuanian politician and reported on by local media outlets. Police investigated and concluded that there was no evidence at all to support such a claim. More recently a photo-shopped image of the German commander, Lt.-Col. Christoph Huber, appeared on a blog along with the fiction that he was a Russian spy who was “not loyal to NATO or to Lithuania, but is a strong supporter of Russian policy.”

Russia circulated similar fabrications when it seized Crimea from Ukraine. “We are taking it very seriously,” Rutland said. Every effort would be made to keep soldiers “on the straight path.”

The Canadian soldiers’ familiarization process for the mission has already begun with a series of detailed briefings about ways Russia may attempt to embarrass them.

Chief Warrant Officer Michael Forest, who has just spent three weeks in Latvia, is to be responsible for ensuring discipline. “We are educating our leadership to look for certain things and to try to avoid those situations where a provocation could happen,” the sergeant-major said. Because “a bright light will be shining on us all the time, we are going to set the conditions through policy. If you go for a pizza there will be a fire team, you will not be alone.”

Col. Ilmars Lejins, the Latvian infantry brigade commander assigned to work closely with Canadians said “the short answer is that we can expect many things” from Russia’s prolific propaganda machine. “Will it happen that there will be a Canadian with two heads and four eyes rampaging around Riga? Of course, there will be ‘news’ like that,” Lejins said. “How do you combat things like that? The first thing is to talk to each other and have common sense. Ask yourself if that is reliable. What the military will do, the Latvians and the Canadian Forces, will be to have a very straightforward two-way conversation with the press and Latvian citizens.” ...
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Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #457 on: May 09, 2017, 07:29:38 »
This on how the troops can spend down time & what to expect - highlights mine ...

It's going to be a long six months  ;D.  Basically, a six month long MAPLE RESOLVE! 

Sounds like the troops will need regular milk runs to Poland, they hate the Russians so any fisticuffs would probably be welcome. 

Offline Fabius

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #458 on: May 09, 2017, 09:08:53 »
I am very skeptical of what the military is trying to achieve by confining the Cdn portion of the BG to the base. 
If they think that will halt the Russian IO attempts, they will, I believe, be proven badly wrong.  The IO campaign is not based in facts so what does it matter from a Russian perspective if the Canadians are or are not confined to the base.  The best that can be achieved in this context is the Canadian military saying “Nope, not us. All our troops were confined to base.”  Not sure that is actually something that should be counted as an effective counter.

I believe that confining the troops to the base and not allowing them to socialize with the population they are there to protect is actually counterproductive.  First let’s remember that Latvia is a modern European country and they are a stable, fairly prosperous NATO ally. They are not hostile, even if a segment of their population may hold pro-Russian sentiments.  To move our forces in and establish a FOB mentality given that context seems stupid and incredibility risk adverse to the point of self-defeating.  An effective counter to the IO campaign is having the troops involved and present doing routine things that people do so that the population sees Canadian soldiers going about their affairs (official or otherwise).  In doing so the population would get to know the Canadians to various degrees and would then in their own social networks discount and discredit the Russian IO.  However that concept is not tidy or clean and does come with its own risks. Sadly it’s apparently not something that we are able to accept or implement.

I wonder what the other contributing countries to the Latvian BG are doing in this area.
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Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #459 on: May 09, 2017, 10:02:55 »
I am very skeptical of what the military is trying to achieve by confining the Cdn portion of the BG to the base. 
If they think that will halt the Russian IO attempts, they will, I believe, be proven badly wrong.  The IO campaign is not based in facts so what does it matter from a Russian perspective if the Canadians are or are not confined to the base.  The best that can be achieved in this context is the Canadian military saying “Nope, not us. All our troops were confined to base.”  Not sure that is actually something that should be counted as an effective counter.

I believe that confining the troops to the base and not allowing them to socialize with the population they are there to protect is actually counterproductive.  First let’s remember that Latvia is a modern European country and they are a stable, fairly prosperous NATO ally. They are not hostile, even if a segment of their population may hold pro-Russian sentiments.  To move our forces in and establish a FOB mentality given that context seems stupid and incredibility risk adverse to the point of self-defeating.  An effective counter to the IO campaign is having the troops involved and present doing routine things that people do so that the population sees Canadian soldiers going about their affairs (official or otherwise).  In doing so the population would get to know the Canadians to various degrees and would then in their own social networks discount and discredit the Russian IO.  However that concept is not tidy or clean and does come with its own risks. Sadly it’s apparently not something that we are able to accept or implement.

I wonder what the other contributing countries to the Latvian BG are doing in this area.

The irony is, we let soldiers roam around freely in places of infinitely greater danger than Latvia (it's not dangerous at all).  Think of all the UN Observers who live off the economy in beautiful places like The Democratic Republic of Congo, South Sudan, Lebanon, Haiti, etc.

I remember being in Jamaica and a Company from 2 RCR showed up for a month of training, there were no restrictions concerning remaining on base.  This was funny considering Jamaica is one of the most dangerous countries in the Caribbean with usually two to three murders DAILY.  I was there for nearly six months and was free to roam around as I wished.  I drove around the entire island and visited Kingston weekly.  Of course, part of my country indoc involved receiving a very detailed intelligence brief from a Jamaican Intelligence Officer concerning where to avoid, including a nice detailed map with areas of danger highlighted, detailed briefs on criminal organizations, political issues, etc. 

This decision is purely for domestic consumption, i.e. avoid any Op HONOUR/Disorderly Conduct that could paint the CAF in a negative light that our national media can grab a hold of.

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #460 on: May 09, 2017, 10:48:59 »
... This decision is purely for domestic consumption, i.e. avoid any Op HONOUR/Disorderly Conduct that could paint the CAF in a negative light that our national media can grab a hold of.
Given that the Russian Foreign Ministry has already lied provided alternative facts about Canada providing ammunition to Ukraine (Google translation below)...
Quote
... With serious concern, they took Canada's decision to extend for a period of two years its military mission in Ukraine. Within its framework, Canadian instructors are engaged in the so-called Ukrainian polygons. "Training" Ukrainian soldiers for subsequent shipment to the Donbass.

We consider such decisions and actions of the Government of Canada to be extremely dangerous. They interfere with the political settlement of the ongoing confrontation caused by the Kiev authorities. Moreover, according to the information available to us, the instructors are not limited to instructors - the Canadians began to supply ammunition for the Ukrainian armed forces, which will undoubtedly fall into the conflict zone ...
... and recent "the Germans are raping Lithuanian women" narratives, I don't know it it may be a bit much, but I think there's a reasonable risk of being worried about more than just adverse domestic Canadian media coverage.
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Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #461 on: May 09, 2017, 10:57:41 »
Given that the Russian Foreign Ministry has already lied provided alternative facts about Canada providing ammunition to Ukraine (Google translation below)...... and recent "the Germans are raping Lithuanian women" narratives, I don't know it it may be a bit much, but I think there's a reasonable risk of being worried about more than just adverse domestic Canadian media coverage.

I would argue their media releases are also for domestic consumption, domestic being Russian.

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #462 on: May 09, 2017, 11:15:02 »
Will the troops be allowed to have a beer on base?
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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #463 on: May 09, 2017, 11:35:23 »
I would argue their media releases are also for domestic consumption, domestic being Russian.
True, but that doesn't change the fact that a public statement, spoken to reporters by a government foreign ministry spokesperson, and repeated on an externally-available web page (with the same allegation appearing in the English-language version - which I'm guessing isn't aimed at domestic audiences) is still "Russia Says Canada Selling or Giving Ammunition to Ukraine"*

And their English-language, RUS-state-funded media is aimed at who, exactly?
Quote
... Canada has begun to supply the Ukrainian military with ammunition that is sure to be delivered to the conflict zone, Russian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Maria Zakharova pointed out ...
* - Sorta like this making it look like Canada says "He was THE Archtitect" ...
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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #464 on: May 18, 2017, 07:29:00 »
This from Latvian media, shared under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act (R.S.C., 1985, c. C-42) ...
Quote
Part of the Canada-led multinational NATO battalion arriving to bolster Latvia's defense will have to live in tents until the fall, as reconstruction of barracks at the Adazi military base will not be completed for several months, the LETA newswire reported May 17.

The matter was discussed at a closed meeting of the Defense Ministry's officials and Saeima Defense, Internal Affairs and Corruption Prevention Committee members May 17.

Defense Minister Raimonds Bergmanis told LETA that overall, the project was being implemented on schedule. If the allies had any concerns, these would have been made known to the Defense Ministry, he said.

"Logistics teams of the allied troops are already operating in Adazi. It's a complex process. There will be almost 400 logistics specialists here soon, who will be involved in construction and setting up the technical equipment," said Bergmanis, saying that the first troops from the multinational battalion had arrived in Latvia quite a long time ago.

The entire battalion is to be deployed to Latvia by June, but it will be impossible to build the new barracks by that time, which is why some of the soldiers will have to stay under canvas.

"The Canadian side has been very understanding and is ready to give the barracks to soldiers from other countries, while the Canadians will be living in tents up until part of the barracks is reconstructed. By the fall, however, they will all have a solid roof over their heads," claimed the minister.

However, readying the facilities for the troops to be stationed in Latvia seems to be lagging behind similar preparations in Estonia and Lithuania.
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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #465 on: May 18, 2017, 11:53:43 »
More on the infrastructure issues, shared under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act (R.S.C., 1985, c. C-42) ...
Quote
Reconstruction of barracks continues in Adazi, part of NATO battalion soldiers will have to live in tents until fall

RIGA, May 17 (LETA) - Part of the Canada-led multinational NATO battalion will have to live in tents until the fall, which is when reconstruction of barracks at the Adazi military will be completed.

The matter was discussed at a closed meeting of the Defense Ministry's officials and Saeima Defense, Internal Affairs and Corruption Prevention Committee members today.

Defense Minister Raimonds Bergmanis (Greens/Farmers) told LETA that overall, the project was being implemented on schedule. If the allies had any concerns, these would have been made known to the Defense Ministry, he said.

"Logistics teams of the allied troops are already operating in Adazi. It's a complex process. There will be almost 400 logistics specialists here soon, who will be involved in construction and setting up the technical equipment," said Bergmanis, reminding that the first troops from the multinational battalion had arrived in Latvia quite a long time ago.

The entire battalion is to be deployed to Latvia by June, but it will be impossible to build the new barracks by that time, which is why part of the soldiers will have to stay in specialized army tents. "The Canadian side has been very understanding and is ready to give the barracks to soldiers from other countries, while the Canadians will be living in tents up until part of the barracks is reconstructed. By the fall, however, they will all have a solid roof over their heads," emphasized the minister.

Published: 17.05.2017 17:34
Gatis Kristovskis, LETA
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Offline MilEME09

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #466 on: May 18, 2017, 12:03:37 »
They are really going to long lengths to make it feel like a 6 month long maple resolve
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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #467 on: May 22, 2017, 08:52:28 »
More details from the Latvian military info-machine on Canada's
Quote
Composition of NATO battlegroup in Latvia laid out

The total number and composition of the NATO battalion under Canadian command that will be on duty in Latvia from June has been specified by Latvia's National Armed Forces information portal www.sargs.lv.

According to sargs.lv*, the Canadian-led battalion level battle group will be composed of about 1,138 soldiers, as well as armor, armored transport and combat support.

Of that number, 450 will be Canadian mechanized infantry bringing with them armored vehicles and various support elements. A specialized Canadian reconnaissance platoon will also be on the ground.

Albania will send 18 combat (explosive ordnance disposal) engineers.

Italy will send a mechanized infantry company consisting of 160 soldiers plus armored fighting vehicles.

Poland will send a tank company with 160 troops.

Slovenia will send 50 soldiers specializing in defense aaginst weapons of mass destruction, (chemical, biological and nuclear weapon defense, decontamination operations etc).

Spain will send the second-largest contingent: 300 soldiers from a mechanized infantry company and armored vehicles, combat engineers and support elements. See them in action in the video below.

Though some troops and equipment are already on the ground, the bulk of the reinforcements, which will work in concert with local Latvian forces, is expected to arrive in June.
Table of breakdown (including Austria's Latvia's flag instead of Canada's) attached.

* - This links to the original source article in Latvian -- Google translation to English of that one here (beware weird reformatting w/the Google Translate).

OP edit to fix lack-of-flag-recognition-skills mistake.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2017, 14:12:30 by milnews.ca »
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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #468 on: May 22, 2017, 09:32:33 »
More details from the Latvian military info-machine on Canada's Table of breakdown (including Austria's flag instead of Canada's) attached.

* - This links to the original source article in Latvian -- Google translation to English of that one here (beware weird reformatting w/the Google Translate).

Latvia flag, not Austria

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #469 on: May 22, 2017, 14:08:59 »
Latvia flag, not Austria
Well, I'll let Jack Nicholson say it for me ...  :facepalm:  Thanks for that - much appreciated.
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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #470 on: May 22, 2017, 14:22:07 »
Quote
Latvia flag, not Austria

Well, I'll let Jack Nicholson say it for me ...  :facepalm:  Thanks for that - much appreciated.
It's a poor representation of either flag.  For Austria, the white and dark red bands are all the same width;  they're not in that graphic, so it's not Austria's flag.  The white band on Latvia's flag is half the width of the dark red bands; it's not quite that narrow, but it's close.

So no need to apologize to those picking fly-feces out of the pepper. 

Now, posting a link to "Jack Nicholson," when it's clearly Will Smith in Hancock.......   ;D
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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #471 on: June 03, 2017, 12:27:53 »
Polish tanks arriving in Latvia, via Twitter May 31:

Quote
Cez Arysta
🔫‏ @cezarysta

.@NATO #Polish 🇵🇱 #PT91 tanks, contribution to #CAN-led 🇨🇦 #eFP #battlegroup arrived to #Latvia 🇱🇻 #PMCLatvia (pics: @Latvijas_armija)
https://twitter.com/cezarysta/status/869807529873866752







No Canadian Army tanks going--Spanish also deploying tanks:
https://www.neweurope.eu/article/spanish-nato-troops-deploy-latvia-first-time-since-wwii/

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #472 on: June 04, 2017, 09:15:38 »
Tanks cost money to maintain, transport to the area.  Rumour is they aren't very fuel efficient as well.  They also cause pollution and stuff.  Despite having fairly new tanks, its not like we can you know, just whip them out or something.   :D
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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #473 on: June 04, 2017, 10:59:55 »
More details from the Latvian military info-machine on Canada's Table of breakdown (including Austria's Latvia's flag instead of Canada's) attached.

* - This links to the original source article in Latvian -- Google translation to English of that one here (beware weird reformatting w/the Google Translate).

OP edit to fix lack-of-flag-recognition-skills mistake.

Seeing the tanks along with a battalion made up of IFVs from three countries (LAVs, ASCODs or BMRs or Piranhas (if Spanish Marines), Dardos or Freccias or Pumas)....... Who is managing the Service Coy?  (I assume it will only be a company seeing as how we are only looking at a battalion - or will we need a Service Bde?)
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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #474 on: June 04, 2017, 11:00:26 »
Meanwhile, in neighbouring Lithuania, Russian-state media is keeping the world informed about the REAL threats ...
Quote
That awkward moment when those famous for discipline and charged with securing your country pick a drunken fistfight and get a spanking - this is what happened in Lithuania to four NATO soldiers from Germany.

"Four drunken German servicemen deployed to Lithuania were harmed in a scuffle in [the town of] Jonava," local police said in a statement.*

The conflict broke out on Friday night, and the soldiers are currently receiving outpatient treatment, according to law enforcement.

The four "soldiers of misfortune" wore civilian clothes and the incident occurred in their off-duty hours. A pre-trial investigation is underway ...
* -- Here's what Google Translate was able to piece together from the Kaunas cop shop blotter"Public nuisance -- 2017-06-03 about 03:30 pm. Jonava Rally g., The conflict and a fight during the German victims of NATO soldiers R. V., born. 1981, Mr S. was born. 1989 S. D., was born. In 1990 and D. S., born. 1989. For persons who present injuries to hospital."
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