Author Topic: 16% of Toronto homeless served in Canadian military  (Read 38451 times)

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Offline Van Gogh

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Re: 16% of Toronto homeless served in Canadian military
« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2013, 07:54:41 »
As others have said, even though 20% might have served in the CF's before (which I highly doubt), that says very little about why they are on the street.
We all make personal decisions in out life's (regardless of where we work) that could end up with us being on the street !!!

P.S. Of  course there are cases when it was not the homeless persons fault that he ended up on the street, just bad luck ....

Offline Danjanou

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Re: 16% of Toronto homeless served in Canadian military
« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2013, 10:15:17 »
No, its my opinion, I am not citing authorities. I've ran into a number of people through my life who were interacting with the CF either as aspiring, current, or former members of both the reserve and regular forces. I base my opinions upon real world interactions, and my own experiences. If you disagree with something I've said I invite you to clarify what is an errored statement.

It sums up to, the more pain you experience the more normal it gets. Not exactly gobbledegook, the military hardens people, that is all there is to it.
 
I am not the least concerned about my post count. Although I understand I only have 9 more shots at this.. and I'm not even done my second application, whatever will I do if I am unable to post in recruiting :( or rather 159 more...


And as the saying goes opinions are like a certain body part everyone has one.

Guess what butter cup there are people on this board and contributing to this thread who actually have real life experience in the subject at hand. That means they are real BTDT Vets who have as you put it lived with theiri house on their back and /or been shot at. There are also people on here that have real life experience in dealing with the homeless on a regular basis. There are even some who fall into both categories.

So sunshine rather than enlighten us with you theories on the subject, how about you STFU and listen/read a bit more and then begin to understand this issue , if that is your objective.
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Offline john10

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Re: 16% of Toronto homeless served in Canadian military
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2013, 22:38:12 »

And as the saying goes opinions are like a certain body part everyone has one.

Guess what butter cup there are people on this board and contributing to this thread who actually have real life experience in the subject at hand. That means they are real BTDT Vets who have as you put it lived with theiri house on their back and /or been shot at. There are also people on here that have real life experience in dealing with the homeless on a regular basis. There are even some who fall into both categories.

So sunshine rather than enlighten us with you theories on the subject, how about you STFU and listen/read a bit more and then begin to understand this issue , if that is your objective.
Is this what's considered civil discussion, leadership through example?

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Offline Not a Sig Op

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Re: 16% of Toronto homeless served in Canadian military
« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2013, 22:55:58 »
Out of curiosity... does anyone have stat on what percent of the Canadian population at large have served in the forces?

Remember troops, the minimum acceptable standard is still an acceptable standard.

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Re: 16% of Toronto homeless served in Canadian military
« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2013, 23:10:09 »
Out of curiosity... does anyone have stat on what percent of the Canadian population at large have served in the forces?

Not a percentage, but this is the estimated number.

Estimated Veteran Population as of March 2013
http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/department/press/gnstat
« Last Edit: October 19, 2013, 23:13:21 by mariomike »
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Offline Not a Sig Op

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Re: 16% of Toronto homeless served in Canadian military
« Reply #30 on: October 19, 2013, 23:47:55 »
So about 1.9%, but that's veterans...

Of course, as we all know, once a member of the forces, always a former member of the forces... spend 3 days in basic training, voluntarily release, rob a bank 10 years later, and the media reports it as a "Former member of the Canadian forces"

Would be interesting to know if 16%, after subtracting the portion who may lie about former service, exceeds the percentage overall of the Canadian population who have, at some point, served with the Canadian forces....
Remember troops, the minimum acceptable standard is still an acceptable standard.

Offline MilEME09

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Re: 16% of Toronto homeless served in Canadian military
« Reply #31 on: October 20, 2013, 13:33:01 »
Personally I'm more interested in what factors contributed to them being homeless, and if any of those factors were a break down in government programs and services
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Re: 16% of Toronto homeless served in Canadian military
« Reply #32 on: October 20, 2013, 13:53:14 »
Personally I'm more interested in what factors contributed to them being homeless, and if any of those factors were a break down in government programs and services

Most just like it that way............
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Offline pbi

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Re: 16% of Toronto homeless served in Canadian military
« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2013, 08:13:44 »
Most just like it that way............

The problem may be, though, that some "just like it that way" because they are too mentally ill to make a better decision.  About two years ago I was involved in a case of an older vet "living rough" in pretty bad conditions in rural Ontario. Despite the efforts of a bunch of well-meaning organizations ranging from the OPP to VAC to the Legion, etc., he decided he didn't want help. His behaviour suggested very strongly that he was mentally disturbed, but because this couldn't be proven sufficiently, he was left to go on his way.

My guess would be that mental illness (aggravated by alcoholism or other addiction) is behind the problem for a good number of these "16 percenters".

Mario Mike: you probably dealt with a few of these folks in your career: what do you think?
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Offline Danjanou

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Re: 16% of Toronto homeless served in Canadian military
« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2013, 09:14:13 »
The problem may be, though, that some "just like it that way" because they are too mentally ill to make a better decision.  About two years ago I was involved in a case of an older vet "living rough" in pretty bad conditions in rural Ontario. Despite the efforts of a bunch of well-meaning organizations ranging from the OPP to VAC to the Legion, etc., he decided he didn't want help. His behaviour suggested very strongly that he was mentally disturbed, but because this couldn't be proven sufficiently, he was left to go on his way.

My guess would be that mental illness (aggravated by alcoholism or other addiction) is behind the problem for a good number of these "16 percenters".

Mario Mike: you probably dealt with a few of these folks in your career: what do you think?

Got it in one. There are agencies/resources out there to help the homeless and/or those with concurrent disorders ( mental health and addictions issues), and we can debate how effective they are or are not but there is one factor to consider, none of them are effective if they people they are set up to assist don't for whatever reason access them.

Many suffering from mental health issues will not access help for one simple reason, they don't see himself as mentally ill. Try telling someone "hey bud you've gone a bit off in the head maybe we should go and see a Doctor." Not going to get the same result as " hey bud you're arm is broken lets take you into the Doctors office and get it taken care of. Toss in the social stigma attached with mental/emotional illness and the fact that the very nature of this type of illness and its effect on the normal rational thought process and you see the problem.

Now add in the addiction issue if one exists. Anyone have experience with convincing a friend  or family member that yes they do have a problem and getting them to admit it? Finally as we're for the most part still dealing with that older generation of vets here the "real men don't have issues and suck it up butter cup" mindset and well one gets the idea of how much an uphill battle this is , even without al the political baggage tossed in.
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Re: 16% of Toronto homeless served in Canadian military
« Reply #35 on: October 21, 2013, 11:46:59 »
Mario Mike: you probably dealt with a few of these folks in your career: what do you think?

I remember the shut-ins, the hoarders, people isolated with no social support, as well as the "NFA's" ( No Fixed Address ). As to what percentage had served in the military, it wasn't part of our assessment to ask.

As to why they lived that way, we left that to the social workers.

All we knew was that the challenges they presented were sometimes overwhelming.

Going into the camps in the ravines you always went in loud - because there was a concern they might have traps.

Many had dogs. We didn't like it, but sometimes we brought them along as well. We let them smoke too. We also brought their bags of stuff with them.

It was a waste of time arguing about the rules. Better to bend a little and hope for a fast and quiet trip than later have to explain to the Coroner why we cancelled ourselves off the call.

Some guys used to lecture them about taking the ambulance away from "someone who might really need us". 

You never knew how they were going to react. Many were docile. Others very agitated.

Even in such a big city, because there were so many "frequent flyers" you got to know some of them. One old guy used to tell us stories about sailing all over the world with the Merchant Marine. One night he was hit

and killed by a drunk driver. When we wheeled him in to the ER the nurses started to cry because they had become so fond of him. They usually said, "Why did you bring him to OUR emerg? Was XXX closed?!"  :)

Something the Department started a couple of years before I retired was sending Community Paramedics to check on individuals as an extension to our emergency service. 

Cheers  :) 
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Re: 16% of Toronto homeless served in Canadian military
« Reply #36 on: November 06, 2013, 07:21:51 »
From the "Be Careful What You Wish For" file ....

The Veterans Affairs Minister wants to know about homeless vets you might know about.  This, from the Parliamentary Secretary speaking in the House of Commons yesterday (highlights mine):
Quote
Mr. Speaker, last week, the Minister of Veterans Affairs met with individuals who are dedicated to helping homeless veterans get off the streets. We, like many veterans groups such as the Royal Canadian Legion, believe that veterans' homelessness should never happen in the first place. We must stand together to address these unfortunate circumstances.  I call on every member in the House and all Canadians to please contact the Minister of Veterans Affairs immediately if they know of or come across a homeless veteran in their community.
You can find contact information for Mr. Fantino's office here or here.
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Re: 16% of Toronto homeless served in Canadian military
« Reply #37 on: November 29, 2013, 00:35:52 »
ALLCON, I am a volunteer with a non-profit on the streets of Toronto.  The numbers are legitimate, when a person declares military service, their service number is recorded and VAC confirms.  What is not reported, there is only one shelter doing this to date.  All others treat those who come through the door as either transient or homeless, there is no question of military service.

Here is a break out (based on one organization this past year):
  • Their mission has identified eighty three (83) men who are Veterans of the Canadian Armed Forces.
  • Of the eighty three, they have housed forty (40).
  • They run an in-house Drug Alcohol Recovery Enrichment program.  They dedicate five (5) beds exclusively for Veterans.
  • They run a specialized Veterans Life Skills Program.
  • Average age is 41.

Offline MCG

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Re: 16% of Toronto homeless served in Canadian military
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2013, 08:55:59 »
So, the statistic of 16% is based on numbers collected at only one shelter which likely attracts a biased sample because it offers special services exclusively for veterans?

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Re: 16% of Toronto homeless served in Canadian military
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2013, 12:23:17 »
From the Summary dated September 4, 2013.
http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2013/cd/bgrd/backgroundfile-61364.pdf
page 7

"Homelessness among Canadian Veterans is evident within Toronto:

Street Needs Assessment respondents were asked about military service for the first time in 2013. Seven percent of the overall homeless population indicated that they had some experience in the Canadian Forces. Although data behind this result is limited (respondents were not asked about length or type of service) it is nonetheless an important result of the SNA. There has been little to no research yet conducted to understand the prevalence of homelessness among Veterans in Canada. However, studies in the United States indicate that roughly 7 percent of the country's homeless population are Veterans *, while in the United Kingdom it is 6 percent."

"In addition, SSHA ( Shelter, Support and Housing Administration ) will: Update shelter intake materials in all SSHA programs to incorporate questions about clients' past service in the Canadian Armed Forces."

* "In U.S., 24% of Men, 2% of Women Are Veterans"
http://www.gallup.com/poll/158729/men-women-veterans.aspx

« Last Edit: November 30, 2013, 22:58:43 by mariomike »
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Offline Sheep Dog

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Re: 16% of Toronto homeless served in Canadian military
« Reply #40 on: December 02, 2013, 01:09:40 »
The stats are as indicated based upon a street level effort by the city.  I used the ministries numbers as they are accurate and verified.   I am sure we will get stronger more accurate numbers as advocacy gets out to the various organizations to capture veteran data and share it.  No matter how you look at it, there is a problem.

Offline Danjanou

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Re: 16% of Toronto homeless served in Canadian military
« Reply #41 on: December 02, 2013, 19:59:21 »
Intersting the numbers in the link posted above by mariomike to the actual document/study done don't say 16% as noted earlier but 7%

Quote
9. Homelessness among Canadian Veterans is evident within Toronto
Street Needs Assessment respondents were asked about military service for the first time in 2013. Seven percent of the overall homeless population indicated that they had some experience in the Canadian Forces. Although data behind this result is limited (respondents were not asked about length or type of service) it is nonetheless an important result of the SNA. There has been little to no research yet conducted to understand the prevalence of homelessness among Veterans in Canada. However, studies in the United States indicate that roughly 7 percent of the country's homeless population are Veterans, while in the United Kingdom it is 6 percent

Now they go on to suggest an estimated 5,253 total homeless, those in the shleter system and those not, based on the count done April 17, 2013. Now 7% of that is 367-368 down from the earlier estimated including the ones I suggested but still way to high.
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Re: 16% of Toronto homeless served in Canadian military
« Reply #42 on: December 04, 2013, 16:01:09 »
Wh gives a flying f if the stats are over-reported, if they are cold war vets, or not! They are a former serving member down on their luck. Cannot stand how so many of us apply our own biases to issues such as these. If the shoe was on our foot...oh how the tune would change.  ;)
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Offline Bruce Monkhouse

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Re: 16% of Toronto homeless served in Canadian military
« Reply #43 on: December 04, 2013, 16:05:13 »
Wh gives a flying f if the stats are over-reported, if they are cold war vets, or not! They are a former serving member down on their luck. Cannot stand how so many of us apply our own biases to issues such as these. If the shoe was on our foot...oh how the tune would change.  ;)

It matters if it's over reported because that money can be put to better use serving vets.  Take a look at how little money actually makes it through all of the various 'hands' on the way down......
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Offline Danjanou

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Re: 16% of Toronto homeless served in Canadian military
« Reply #44 on: December 04, 2013, 16:23:57 »
Wh gives a flying f if the stats are over-reported, if they are cold war vets, or not! They are a former serving member down on their luck. Cannot stand how so many of us apply our own biases to issues such as these. If the shoe was on our foot...oh how the tune would change.  ;)

So buddy did you actually read this entire thread or just decide to jump up on your soapbox today. I and more than a few otherrs on here actually do give a flying frig and as others can attest spend a lot of time and effort on this issue. As Bruce pointed out, actually knowing the extent of the problem helps as opposed to the toss some money at it, and hope it goes away, or ignore it an hopes it goes away which are the two options often being used.
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Re: 16% of Toronto homeless served in Canadian military
« Reply #45 on: December 04, 2013, 17:04:20 »
I did in fact read the thread. In fact I deal with this type of issue on a daily basis as part of my job.  I also volunteer once a week at 2 homeless centres to help reach out. So perhaps my frustration is directly linked with having to deal with too many people that would rather debate stats to death instead of perhaps going in and getting their hands dirty. Through experience, I have learned that judging whether one person is more entitled than another to care, instead of looking at how can I help. The way I see it, if 1 out of 10 are using the system....at least I got to 9 instead wasting effort to see which of the 10 deserve the care

Sorry very touchy subject for me as I listen everyday to people make judgements on what deployment is more important than another, whether a person should be entitled to their OSI diagnosis based on their experience, tours etc...

Again...they're down on their luck and it should not matter how, but what can we do within our ability to help
« Last Edit: December 04, 2013, 17:15:04 by chyna »
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Offline Monsoon

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Re: 16% of Toronto homeless served in Canadian military
« Reply #46 on: December 04, 2013, 17:21:30 »
Wh gives a flying f if the stats are over-reported, if they are cold war vets, or not!
It matters because the stat perpetuates a pernicious misperception amongst the Star's readership that military service is correlated with low-functioning individuals who are, in effect, one small step away from being homeless. Alternately, it perpetuates the myth that if you join the military, you will inevitably "get PTSD and go crazy", as does the over-reporting of CF suicides (which remain below the general population's average when adjusted for age and gender demographics). So yes, whether or not the stat is legitimate matters.

N.B. - I'm not saying we shouldn't make all efforts to help vets in need, nor am I saying that we shouldn't be doing more to help members who are in crisis (for any reason). What I am saying is that bogus stats are used by the military's various antagonists to delegitimize us and increase the apparent cost of our missions.

Offline pbi

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Re: 16% of Toronto homeless served in Canadian military
« Reply #47 on: December 12, 2013, 07:40:42 »
It matters because the stat perpetuates a pernicious misperception amongst the Star's readership that military service is correlated with low-functioning individuals who are, in effect, one small step away from being homeless. Alternately, it perpetuates the myth that if you join the military, you will inevitably "get PTSD and go crazy", as does the over-reporting of CF suicides (which remain below the general population's average when adjusted for age and gender demographics). So yes, whether or not the stat is legitimate matters.

N.B. - I'm not saying we shouldn't make all efforts to help vets in need, nor am I saying that we shouldn't be doing more to help members who are in crisis (for any reason). What I am saying is that bogus stats are used by the military's various antagonists to delegitimize us and increase the apparent cost of our missions.

 :salute:

My concern exactly. You can't fix a problem until you define it properly. Running around in circles exaggerating things or giving bad info will not help anybody. I would go much further than "the Star's readership" to include a broad range of otherwise uninformed Canadians.

We shouldn't be making it easy for the public to draw a mental box around vets and marginalize them by telling themselves "Oh, vets..well, they're all like that, aren't they?"If we are going to avoid the terrible and tragic consequences that beset veterans in the US after Vietnam, we need to avoid stoking two bonfires:

-that soldiers are otherwise socially useless people who couldn't get any other job, so it's no wonder they're back on the street; and

-if you go off to war, you come back as a psychotic looney-tune who will never be able to function again. And you were probably a nutter to volunteer in the first place.

It's not abandoning or ignoring vets. Its about making sure those things aren't easy for the public to rationalize.
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Re: Homeless veterans
« Reply #48 on: August 28, 2016, 20:10:15 »
Homeless Veterans are a national concern. Perhaps the thread title could reflect that?

Aug 28, 2016

A by-the-numbers look at Canada's population of homeless military veterans
http://www.680news.com/2016/08/28/a-by-the-numbers-look-at-canadas-population-of-homeless-military-veterans/
OTTAWA – A by-the-numbers look at the state of homelessness among Canadian military veterans:

2,250: Estimated number of veterans who use shelters annually.

639: Homeless veterans registered in Veteran Affairs Canada’s database as of June 30.

232: Homeless veterans in the database who are between age 50 and 59.

138: Homeless veterans in the database who are over age 65.

235,000: Canadians who experience homelessness annually.

5-7: Range, in percentage points, of the homeless population who are veterans, based on municipal point-in-time homeless counts.

12,000: Estimated number of veterans experiencing homelessness in Canada, based on that spread.

40,000: Approximate number of veterans who experience homelessness in the United States annually.

47: Per cent by which the United States has decreased veterans homelessness since 2010 using measures being considered by Veterans Affairs Canada.

(Sources: Employment and Social Development Canada, Veterans Affairs Canada, Canadian Observatory on Homelessness,
« Last Edit: August 28, 2016, 20:24:52 by mariomike »
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Re: 16% of Toronto homeless served in Canadian military
« Reply #49 on: August 29, 2016, 02:37:35 »
So put another way: the "homeless veteran" population who use shelters (i.e. the verifiable number) correlates almost exactly to the ratio of male members of the Canadian population who serve in the military at some point in their lifetime (<1% in both cases).

The extrapolated figure based on municipal estimates (12,000) is literally unbelievable. With an active/reserve military establishment of 2.2MM in the US, the prevalence of veteran homelessness in Canada would need to be 10x the prevalence of veteran homelessness in the US for that number to be correct. I ain't buying it.