Author Topic: CEOTP-The Seneca College Pilot Program FAQs  (Read 183541 times)

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Offline roger44

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CEOTP-The Seneca College Pilot Program FAQs
« on: May 19, 2012, 00:44:37 »
There is a new program that includes a partnership with Seneca College for the academics and the flight training is done thru the military.  It is an awesome opportunity but the timelines are very short.
Anyone interested must get the process rolling now.  Get the word out.

Offline Donny

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Re: CEOTP Pilot is open!!!
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2012, 15:48:11 »
Can anybody enroll on CEOTP? I thought its only for CF members.

aesop081

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Re: CEOTP Pilot is open!!!
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2012, 16:03:49 »
Can anybody enroll on CEOTP? I thought its only for CF members.

There are both a CEOTP for folks coming in from the street and CEOTP for internal selection only.

Offline Melbatoast

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Re: CEOTP Pilot is open!!!
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2012, 23:45:39 »
I would urge caution and talk to people actually in the CEOTP stream before pulling the trigger on an application.  It is not the preferred option for the CF and candidates are often treated accordingly (second class citizens).  I know and interact with number of them in different occupations, and talked to even more when I was actively considering it.  It sounds good on paper but very seriously consider the actual career requirements and repercussions before going through with it.

I am personally very glad I missed it and got a different program.  No regrets.

Offline RobOfstie

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Re: CEOTP Pilot is open!!!
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2012, 11:58:50 »
Does anyone know what the SIP is for the CEOTP-Internal this fiscal year??  I realize those numbers are subject to change but I'm curious what the target # is.  I put my name in for a CT/OT CEOTP-Internal over a year ago, and am finally proceeding with the application.  Interview done, merit listed, Aircrew medical is scheduled next week, then Aircrew selection sometime after that.    If your considering a CT/OT be prepared for an extremely long wait no matter what way you look at it.

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Re: CEOTP Pilot is open!!!
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2012, 16:48:19 »
It is not the preferred option for the CF and candidates are often treated accordingly (second class citizens).

How so? If that's really the case, there could be grounds for a massive redress going through.. But I don't think it is the case...

Offline Melbatoast

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Re: CEOTP Pilot is open!!!
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2012, 16:55:55 »
How so? If that's really the case, there could be grounds for a massive redress going through.. But I don't think it is the case...

I worded that awkwardly.  They have to work in a system that is not really set up to handle them so their lives can be very difficult.  They have to complete multiple phases of career development simultaneously and more often than not have to focus on one more than the other, leaving nobody happy.

I'm sure some CEOTP will show up and tell us how it went seamlessly for him, but I've yet to meet that person.

edit - though whatever this program is sounds much different from the traditional CEOTP.  More like the old community college training plan.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2012, 17:35:19 by Melbatoast »

Offline lifeGoes

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Re: CEOTP Pilot is open!!!
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2012, 19:27:41 »
I am not sure there is CEOTP for Pilot this year. I once started CEOTP in 2009, then changed to Navy 2010, then this year re-apply through CEOTP or DEO plan for Pilot position. I was told by the CFNRCC, North Bay that there is no CEOTP at this time (year), but I have been given chances to go through DEO.

I think CEOTP is still for internal selection. Hope this info helped.

Offline MdB

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Re: CEOTP Pilot is open!!!
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2012, 18:44:20 »
CEOTP Pilot at Seneca College is open and they are taking application.

The proper way to apply is to write the entry exam at Seneca, then get accepted in the program. You get to apply in the CF thereafter.

Of note, ROTP pilot is still running altough the selections are getting at the end for RMC. You can apply concurrently ROTP and CEOTP.

The main thing to remember about Seneca is that it is to speed up the training (only 4 years compared to 7-8+) and that it includes military training even as the student goes to Seneca.  BUT, it is not for all, as you fail a course and you screw your course/training schedule for the rest of the diploma. ROTP has more leeway on options if something like that happens.

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Offline Heff18

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RCAF-Seneca Pilot Partnership
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2012, 18:30:06 »
http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/15w-15e/nr-sp/index-eng.asp?id=12931

Saw this on the RCAF website today, and as a current CAMP student (multi-IFR + degree) being winged after 4 years is pretty appealing. Even with the PFT by-pass, I'll be looking at 2-3 years post-grad until wings. Good luck to those who enter this and look forward to hearing about it's success.

Offline DexOlesa

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Re: RCAF-Seneca Pilot Partnership
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2012, 20:19:54 »
I guess my question is, if the CF is going to do all the flight training, why go to/ make the deal with Seneca an aviation college, instead of a regular college.

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: RCAF-Seneca Pilot Partnership
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2012, 21:14:32 »
I guess my question is, if the CF is going to do all the flight training, why go to/ make the deal with Seneca an aviation college, instead of a regular college.

For a career in aviation, Seneca (and Mount Royal, Canadore, etc...) IS a "regular college."


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G2G

Offline DexOlesa

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Re: RCAF-Seneca Pilot Partnership
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2012, 21:29:26 »
Yes, with a dubious history in the aviation world. However at least the CF will still be doing the flight training.

Offline MedCorps

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Re: RCAF-Seneca Pilot Partnership
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2012, 21:48:29 »
Yes, with a dubious history in the aviation world. However at least the CF will still be doing the flight training.

Explain the dubious history in the aviation world.  I have not heard this and I am interested to know that the problems have been at these two schools.

MC

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Re: RCAF-Seneca Pilot Partnership
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2012, 21:49:24 »
Yes, with a dubious history in the aviation world...

Dubious? ???

Personal experience, or do you have a reference to an acknowledged authority on Seneca's performance/quality?

A number of my colleagues in flight training were Seneca grads and they were professional, capable aviators, many of whom spoke highly of their alma matter and are performing quite well in the CF (for at least two decades).  My opinion (note how I state that clearly), is that Seneca has a good reputation in Canadian flying programs, and deservedly so.


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Offline DexOlesa

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Re: RCAF-Seneca Pilot Partnership
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2012, 22:32:29 »
Personal experience with their grads, and as a Pilot and former flight instructor at other schools. The government subsidized schools, in Ontario in particular have quite a stigma. Springing from rules and regulations there that many feel degrade the quality of pilot coming from the institutions. 5 knot crosswind limits for students. Requiring that the gear remain down on the Bonanza's at all times because of one too many gear up landings (though I will admit my only knowledge of that particular reg may not apply directly to Seneca, but one of the other schools). Now I am sure that they do graduate some fine pilots, as you have pointed out. However in my experience, I have gotten an overall negative response in many places in the industry when discussing these aviation programs. As I said, if the CF is retaining control of the actual flight training, it likely wont matter. They'll just be sending them there for the degree.

 This however circles back to my original question. If you aren't sending them there for the flight training, how is this any different/ better than the ROTP program at any other school, other than its a Bachelors of Aviation Management (which honestly wont apply much more to a CF pilot I would think, than just a normal BBA or BSC.) I would like more info on how they plan to get these students to wings in 4 years since through the normal ROTP program if you are lucky you can get slotted on PFT summer 3, however the other blocks are too lengthy to allow you to do it in the summer between normal classes.

Edit to add: I would like to also state that my problem is not with just Seneca but the majority of these "puppy mill" flight schools (having taught at 2 personally) They crank out pilots at an accelerated rate, leading these kids blindly into a crashing industry, with promises of job shortages and the glamorous life of a Pilot (which frankly doesn't exist anymore). The market is subsequently flooded, pushing the wages of pilots lower and lower, and reducing the quality of life, because these kids are told they need to do anything to get ahead, and the industry eats its young. With these schools being subsidized it just exacerbates the situation as it costs a fraction of normal university or conventional flight training, so massive platoon size classes are getting shoved through.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2012, 22:44:51 by DexOlesa »

Offline MAJONES

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Re: RCAF-Seneca Pilot Partnership
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2012, 23:00:22 »
I believe the Seneca partnership was brought into being as a way for CEOTP pilots to earn a degree and fullfill their terms of service.  At least that is how I read the CANAIRGEN.  The idea was that Seneca would grant degree credit for RCAF flight and officer training, (the officer training being OPME and AFOD).

As for the other comments regarding Seneca's reputation; The school has produced some students with a certain attitude.  That small minority of students gets noticed and the whole school pays the price.  Also, Seneca trains their students for airline work; the emphasis is on SOPs etc.  This type of training does not always prepare them well for their first jobs flying in the bush.

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Re: RCAF-Seneca Pilot Partnership
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2012, 23:51:42 »
The four year program cannot be based on a standard school year. As previously mentioned, there is no way you can fit a 10-12 month BFT and another 4-7 month AFT in during summer break.   The 4 year goal most probably looks feasible on paper - but delays should be expected. These ab-initio students will not be given any priorities over those already in the grinder.
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Re: RCAF-Seneca Pilot Partnership
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2012, 00:09:49 »
The four year program cannot be based on a standard school year. As previously mentioned, there is no way you can fit a 10-12 month BFT and another 4-7 month AFT in during summer break.   The 4 year goal most probably looks feasible on paper - but delays should be expected. These ab-initio students will not be given any priorities over those already in the grinder.

I suspect they may end up doing it a month at a time as opposed to all at once.  Unless the school year is tailored to fit these students on the longer courses.
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Offline Melbatoast

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Re: RCAF-Seneca Pilot Partnership
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2012, 02:58:30 »
These ab-initio students will not be given any priorities over those already in the grinder.

I would suspect that the intakes (especially the initial ones) will be tiny, on the order of 5 people or less, so I doubt there would be any impact.  I base that on the size of the NCM-SEP programs running at colleges, which seem to be the closest analog to this program.

Having seen the PML vs. TES numbers for the occupation this year I understand the need to stand something like this up, but it's not opening the floodgates.

I would sure be annoyed if I was wrong and it does effect the pipeline, which appears to be finally coming unclogged...

Offline DexOlesa

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Re: RCAF-Seneca Pilot Partnership
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2012, 22:50:12 »
Quote
The idea was that Seneca would grant degree credit for RCAF flight and officer training, (the officer training being OPME and AFOD).

I guess this is really the heart of my scepticism. So they will get university credits for the flight training that everyone has to take, making this a quasi degree. Just seems like it's the airforce saying "pilot don't really need degree's so lets find away around it"

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Re: RCAF-Seneca Pilot Partnership
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2012, 05:38:20 »
  The idea was that Seneca would grant degree credit for RCAF flight and officer training, (the officer training being OPME and AFOD).



Unless Seneca starts teaching Operational planing process, aerospace doctrine, etc...I don't see getting credit for AFOD.

Edit: Nevermind, i just interpreted that the oposite way.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 07:06:16 by CDN Aviator »

Offline captloadie

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Re: RCAF-Seneca Pilot Partnership
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2012, 06:22:51 »
I read the directive a while ago so things are a little fuzzy, but if I remember correctly, students would attend the college for specific courses related to their  aviation management (?) degree, and be granted credits for other military course taken (AFOD, OPMEs, etc), much like Athabaskan does for military members. The program would also be designed to accomodate longer breaks in order to get the required flight training in.

Will these individuals get preferential loading onto courses, that is a very good question.

Offline Heff18

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Re: RCAF-Seneca Pilot Partnership
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2012, 11:27:44 »
After reading the CANFORGEN, if all works out as set by the timeline, members will complete PhI 1st year with some academics, PhII and PhIII during 2nd and 3rd year, then 4th year will be finishing up the academics side at Seneca and upon graduation students will be sent to OTU's or PhIV for fighter pilots.

Within the 4 year timeline members should achieve:

A BACHELOR OF AVIATION TECHNOLOGY DEGREE
ROYAL CANADIAN AIR FORCE WINGS
A ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGE OF CANADA CERTIFICATE OF COMPLETION FOR THE OFFICER PROFESSIONAL MILITARY EDUCATION (OPME) PROGRAMME (which is ceasing to exist Apr 13)
BLOCK 2 OF THE AIR FORCE OFFICER DEVELOPMENT (AFOD) PROGRAMME, AND
THE BASIC MILITARY OFFICER QUALIFICATION

~4 semesters at Seneca and the rest is credited to AF training and OPME/CFJOD
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 11:39:43 by Heff18 »

Offline DexOlesa

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Re: RCAF-Seneca Pilot Partnership
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2012, 18:44:28 »
Right so barely half a degree