Author Topic: 450 Tactical Helicopter Squadron Is Reborn  (Read 78819 times)

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Offline RedSash

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450 Tactical Helicopter Squadron Is Reborn
« on: March 06, 2012, 01:19:16 »
Rumour has it that the new CH-147 Sqn will be 450 Sqn,  which was a originally allocated to the Royal Australian Air Force in World War II. Canada received permission to adopt the number and the Squadron was formed at RCAF Station St. Hubert on 29 March 1968 (moved to CFB Ottawa in May 1970) and was disbanded on 25 June 1996 at 1 Wing St. Hubert .
 I understand the rational of  standing up a previous Chinook Sqn,  but I believe that we should stand up a Sqn that has Battle Honours. Those Battle Honours should be flying proudly again in a new unit . Having a new unit stand up, and reform a Sqn that had World War Two service and post - war service,  will give the new Squadron members a feeling of pride. The new unit  will be able to foster the customs and traditions of a proud war time Squadron, such as being affiliated with Canadian City's  (No. 401 "City of Westmount" Squadron RCAF , No. 411 "City of York" Squadron RCAF, No. 416 "City of Oshawa" Squadron RCAF, No. 418 "City of Edmonton" Squadron RCAF, No. 420 "City of London" Squadron RCAF).  Out of the twelve Squadrons listed, three have been previous Tac Hel Sqns ( 401, 411, 422) and two ( 401,411) have animals in the Squadron Crest, keeping with the rest of 1 Wing Sqns.
The  Army has esprit de corps with their Regimental system and when you are part of a Regimental system, you developed sense of belonging to a Regiment. The same can be said with the Squadron system. There seems to be a greater feeling of pride since we went back to calling ourselves the RCAF.  Being part of a Squadron that has war time history will instil greater pride and belonging to something with history and traditions. This creates a link to our proud past  and legacy and traditions to hold onto for a future. MND Hon Peter MacKay said it best when he restored the RCAF.  > " An important element of Canadian military heritage was lost when these three former services were required to relinquish their historic titles. Restoring these historic identities is a way of reconnecting today ' s men and women in uniform, and the proud history and traditions that [they] carry with them as members of the Canadian Forces.


 Role:
 Fighter and Tactical Helicopter and Training Squadron.
 Motto:
 MORS CELERRIMA HOSTIBUS
(Very swift death for the enemy)
Badge:
 A Rocky Mountain sheep's head Sable horned Or caboshed
Battle Honours:
Battle of Britain 1940, Defence of Britain 1940-44, English Channel and North Sea 1942, Fortress Europe 1941-44, Dieppe, France and Germany 1944-45, Normandy 1944, Arnhem, Rhine

 411 "County of York" Squadron

 Role:
 Fighter and Tactical Helicopter Squadron
 Battle Honours:
 Defence of Britain 1941-44, English Channel and North Sea 1942-43, Fortress Europe1941-44, Dieppe, France and Germany 1944-45, Normandy 1944, Arnhem, Rhine
Motto :
 INIMICUS INIMICO
 (Hostile to the enemy)
Badge:
Argent a bear rampant Sable armed Or

 415 Squadron
Role:
Torpedo-bomber, bomber and Maritime Patrol Squadron
Motto:
AD METAM
(To the mark)
 Badge:
 Argent a swordfish proper variant
 Battle Honours:
 Atlantic 1942, English Channel and North Sea 1942-44, France and Germany 1944-45, Biscay Ports 1944, uhr 1944-45, German Ports 1944-45, Normandy 1944, Rhine, Biscay 1942-43

416 Squadron
Role:
 Fighter and Air Defence Squadron
 Motto:
 AD SALTUM PARATUS
 (Ready for the leap)
 Badge:
Argent in front of a maple leaf Or a lynx proper leaping downwards
 Battle Honours:
 Defence of Britain 1942-44, English Channel and North Sea 1943, Fortress Europe 1942-44, Dieppe, France and Germany 1944-45, Normandy 1944, Arnhem, Rhine, Gulf and Kuwait

 418 Squadron
 Role:
 Intruder, Fighter-Bomber and Transport and Rescue Squadron
Motto:
 PIYAUTAILILI
 (Defend even unto death)
Badge:
 Argent an Inuit on an ice floe holding a harpoon proper
 Battle Honours:
 Defence of Britain 1944, Fortress Europe 1942-44, Dieppe, France and Germany 1944-45, Normandy 1944, Rhine

420 Squadron
 Role:
 Bomber, Fighter and Maritime Patrol Squadron
Motto:
 PUGNAMUS FINITUM
 (We fight to the finish)
 Badge:
 Argent a snowy owl wings elevated and adorsed proper
 Battle Honours:
 English Channel and North Sea 1942-44, Baltic 1942, Fortress Europe 1942-44, France and Germany 1944-45, Biscay Ports 1942-44, Ruhr 1942-45, Berlin 1944, German Ports 1942-45, Normandy 1944, Rhine, Biscay 1942-43, Sicily 1943, Italy 1943, Salerno

 422 Squadron
Role:
 General Reconnaissance and Tactical Helicopter Squadron
 Motto:
 THIS ARM SHALL DO IT
 Badge:
 A cubit arm adorned holding in the hand a tomahawk head Gules handle adorned
 Battle Honours:
 Atlantic 1942-1945, English Channel and North Sea 1944-1945, Normandy 1944, Biscay 1944-1945, Arctic 1942

 428 Squadron
 Role:
 Bomber and All-Weather Fighter Squadron
Motto:
USQUE AD FINEM
(To the very end)
 Badge:
 Argent in a shroud Sable a death's head (or skull) Argent.

Battle Honours:
 English Channel and North Sea 1943-1944, Baltic 1944, Fortress Europe 1943-1944, France and Germany 1944-1945, Biscay Ports 1943-1944, Ruhr 1943-1945, Berlin 1943-1944, German Ports 1943-1945, Normandy 1944, Thine, Biscay 1943-1944

 432 Squadron
 Role:
 Bomber and All-Weather Fighter Squadron
 Motto:
 SAEVITER AD LUCEM
 (Ferociously towards the light)
Badge:
 Argent in front of a full moon Argent a Cougar leaping downwards Sable armed and langued Gules.
 Battle Honours:
 English Channel and North Sea 1943, Fortress Europe 1943-1944, France and Germany 1944-1945, Biscay Ports 1944, Ruhr 1943-1945, Berlin 1943-1944, German Ports 1943-1945, Normandy 1944, Rhine, Biscay 1943

 433 Squadron
 Role:
 Bomber and Tactical Fighter Squadron
 Motto:
 QUI S'Y FROTT S'Y PIQUE
 (Who opposes it gets hurt)
Badge:
Argent in front of a hurt porcupine Or.
 Battle Honours:
 English Channel and North Sea 1944-1945, Baltic 1944-1945, Fortress Europe 1944, France and Germany 1944-1945, Biscay Ports 1944, Ruhr 1944-1945, Berlin 1944, German Ports 1944-1945, Normandy 1944, Rhine, Biscay 1944

 434 Squadron
 Role:
 Bomber, Fighter, Strike/Attack ,Tactical Fighter Operational Training Squadron and Combat Support Squadron (EW)
 Motto:
 IN EXCELSIS VINCIMUS
 (We conquer in the heights)
 Badge:
 Argent upon waves of water Azure representation of the schooner Bluenose proper.
 Battle Honours:
 English Channel and North Sea 1943-1944, Baltic 1943-1944, Fortress Europe 1943-1944, France and Germany 1944-1945, Biscay Ports 1944, Ruhr 1943-1945, Berlin 1943-1944, German Ports 1944-1945, Normandy 1944, Rhine

 441 Squadron
 Role:
 Fighter, Strike/Attack and Tactical Fighter Squadron> Motto:
 STALK AND KILL
 Badge:
 Argent a silver fox's head affronté caboshed proper.
 Battle Honours:
 Defence of Britain 1945, Fortress Europe 1944, France and Germany 1944-1945, Normandy 1944, Arnhem, Walcheren

EVERY MAN THINKS MEANLY OF HIMSELF FOR NOT HAVING BEEN A SOLDIER!     Samuel Johnson 1709-1779

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: New Chinook Sqn
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2012, 14:15:18 »
The idea of historical connection to battle honours is always good, but isn't it a little inappropriate when all the battle honours you seek recognized in a Helicopter Squadron are from fixed wing squadrons and a time when no helicopters operated, other than a token number taken on at the end of WWII (1945 only) for the purpose of developing instructors, should their widespread use be required before the end of the war - a scenario that did not come to pass?

aesop081

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Re: New Chinook Sqn
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2012, 14:20:59 »
but isn't it a little inappropriate when all the battle honours you seek recognized in a Helicopter Squadron are from fixed wing squadrons and a time when no helicopters operated,

Several current RCAF helicopter squadrons have battle honours that were earned when they were flyign fixed-wing aicraft and at a time when no helicopters were flying.

423 Sqn, 443 Sqn, 403 Sqn, 408 Sqn.........

Offline Strike

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Re: New Chinook Sqn
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2012, 14:25:24 »
Although 450 may not have battle honours it still has a very proud history, of which at least one member of this forum could attest to.

Why start up a brand new Sqn with no recent history or take a number of a unit that was disbanded only a short time ago when you can use a number that was directly associated to Chinooks?
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: New Chinook Sqn
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2012, 14:27:53 »
The idea of historical connection to battle honours is always good, but isn't it a little inappropriate when all the battle honours you seek recognized in a Helicopter Squadron are from fixed wing squadrons and a time when no helicopters operated, other than a token number taken on at the end of WWII (1945 only) for the purpose of developing instructors, should their widespread use be required before the end of the war - a scenario that did not come to pass?

I suppose you would apply the same to a Fighter Sqn accepting/perpetuating the Battle Honours of a Bomber Sqn (which we no longer have any of).  Most, if not all, of our Sqns have flown a wide variety of aircraft types and roles.

All the Sqns in the RCAF have seen the type of aircraft that they have flown over the years change.  Why would you think this would be any different? 
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Offline RedSash

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Re: New Chinook Sqn
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2012, 16:43:02 »
Although 450 may not have battle honours it still has a very proud history, of which at least one member of this forum could attest to.

Why start up a brand new Sqn with no recent history or take a number of a unit that was disbanded only a short time ago when you can use a number that was directly associated to Chinooks?

I think I said it all in my post. I don't want to start up a brand new Sqn, I would like to see an old one reformed that is not 450 Sqn. I just think that using an RAAF Sqn in present day doesn't make sense when we have several that have been stood down that have more of a connection with the RCAF. I understand when 450 Sqn stood up, not much choice was out there as all the War time Sqns were activated and 450 and then 447 (not a war time sqn either) were used. I just feel that with the choices we have from stood down sqns that it would be far better to choose one with Battle honours and have that historical link with our RCAF past.  IMHO
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Offline Loachman

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Re: New Chinook Sqn
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2012, 17:03:37 »
I just feel that with the choices we have from stood down sqns that it would be far better to choose one with Battle honours and have that historical link with our RCAF past.

Tac Hel's true "historical link" is not "RCAF". The first Tac Hel units were 1 Transport Helicopter Platoon RCASC (flying Voyageurs), the RCHA aerial observation post (AOP) flights, and the helicopter troops of RCAC recce squadrons, so it makes no difference which 400-series Squadron number is selected.

Regardless, the decision has been made. The CF's first Chinook Squadron will be ressurrected.

Offline BillN

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Re: New Chinook Sqn
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2012, 07:47:44 »
I think RedSash misses the boat here.  One of the things that the ex-members of 450 Sqn were very proud of was the fact we were NEVER an RCAF Squadron  :warstory:  Our customs and traditions came to us from the Royal Canadian Army Service Corps through 1 Transport Helicopter Platoon (1THP).

As I wrote a while ago on this site:

"When the 400 series was first used back in WW2, 400 to 449 went to the RCAF.   Scoot forward now to 1968 when 1THP was informed that it was to become an air force squadron, the CO of the day requested that a number not previously used by the RCAF be 'issued'. 

This was done because it was felt it was very important that the RCASC traditions of 1THP be kept alive and not swept under the carpet. And that the customs and traditions of a former RCAF squadron, now to be stood up in 1THP's place, would not be allowed to take priority.

As we now know DHist, not doing any proper research into the matter, assumed that 450 had never been used, and so it came to be that 1THP became 450 Sqn. 

During my time on the Sqn in the mid-1980's contact was made with 450 Sqn RAAF Association, who were thrilled to find out that 'their' Sqn had been reformed.  In fact many of them made a trip to Canada when our first Sqn Colour was presented.  I know the CO during my time, LCol David 'Doc' Purich - now sadly passed away, requested to DHist that 450 CAF be allowed to carry the battle honours won by 450 RAAF.  This was turned down, even though the Aussie's agreed to it."

I was extremely pleased to be told a month ago by members at 1 Wing HQ, that an application had been made to 1CAD for the Squadron then known a "4 Double X" to be officially named 450 Squadron. 

450 Squadron's history, customs and traditions, are as unique as any RCAF squadrons.  In fact some of us think more so.

"By Air To Battle"

Offline Loachman

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Re: New Chinook Sqn
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2012, 09:21:04 »
450 Squadron's badge has been appearing on 1 Wing HQ CUB slides and other presentations, along with the Wing's other Squadron badges, for a while now.

Offline RedSash

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Re: New Chinook Sqn
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2012, 12:34:36 »
Tac Hel's true "historical link" is not "RCAF". The first Tac Hel units were 1 Transport Helicopter Platoon RCASC (flying Voyageurs), the RCHA aerial observation post (AOP) flights, and the helicopter troops of RCAC recce squadrons, so it makes no difference which 400-series Squadron number is selected.

I believe this is called semantics, but  I agree with you on  "Tac Hel's True Historical Link".  The RCHA aerial observation post (AOP) flights were RCAF Sqns manned by Royal Canadian Artillery and Royal Canadian Air Force personnel and were under Army Co-operation Command (No. 664 Sqn RCAF, No.665 Sqn RCAF, No.666  Sqn RCAF).  We can all so talk about  No. 10 Army Co-Operation Squadron  that was formed in 1932 and renumbered No. 110 "City of Toronto" Army Co-Operation Squadron in 1937. It become No. 400 Sqn RCAF Army Co-Operation Squadron in 1941 when it deployed overseas as part of No. 39 (AC) Wing (RCAF) and now of course we know it as 400 THS.  The other two Sqns to form the Wing were 414 and 430 Sqns. When the Command was disbanded the three Sqns become part of 2nd Tactical Air Force.


I think RedSash misses the boat here. 

I don't think I missed the boat. My point was that I would like to see a Sqn with Battle Honours and connection maybe with a "City" that was a RCAF Sqn.  I think it is great 450 Sqn carried on the customs and traditions of 1 Transport Helicopter Platoon and I hope that the Sqn will continue do so, since Loachman says "Regardless, the decision has been made. The CF's first Chinook Squadron will be ressurrected". My post was simply to put forth that 450 Sqn was a RAAF Sqn during the war and not a RCAF. Maybe 664, 665 and 664 would have been better choice, who knows? If we have 103 Sqn, why couldn't we have had 666 Sqn again. I hope the request to carry the battle honours of 450 RAAF will be asked again and not be turned down. Regardless, BillN I thank you for the history education on 1 THP and wish more info was out there about this unit.  Just as a side bar....455 Sqn RAAF crest looks very much like 450 Sqns crest.  Any thoughts on that?
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Offline Loachman

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Re: New Chinook Sqn
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2012, 14:55:39 »
The RCHA aerial observation post (AOP) flights were RCAF Sqns manned by Royal Canadian Artillery and Royal Canadian Air Force personnel and were under Army Co-operation Command.

Not during the time leading up to unification and the first few years beyond. Note the "ARMY" painted on the side of the L19 at http://www.warbirdalley.com/l19.htm. Scroll down on http://www.ody.ca/~bwalker/RCAF_10261_10287_detailed.html until you see references to "Army Aviation Tactical Training School at CJATC, Rivers Camp, Manitoba" and "Royal Canadian Armoured Corps (RCAC) Helicopter Troop in Germany in 1962". These were Army-owned aircraft, operated and maintained by Army personnel, wearing Army uniforms and their Regimental or Corps cap badges (RCEME in the case of the maintainers) and the Commonwealth/British Army wings. After unification, these aircraft plus the Kiowas and Twin Hueys that replaced them, were owned by Mobile Command (Army) until Air Command was formed in 1975.

Had the travesty of unification not happened, there would be no discussion about linking Canadian Army Aviation units to RCAF Squadrons today.

My post was simply to put forth that 450 Sqn was a RAAF Sqn during the war and not a RCAF.

Not our 450 Squadron. There was an RAAF Squadron designated "450". There is no link between the two beyond the number. That number could also have been used in several other flying services around the world as well - so what?

I hope the request to carry the battle honours of 450 RAAF will be asked again and not be turned down.

Why? There is no logical reason for this. 450 Squadron RAAF was not a Canadian unit.

401 Squadron was originally No 1 Squadron RCAF - there is, similarly, no logical reason for it to carry 1 Squadron RAF's battle honours.

Just as a side bar....455 Sqn RAAF crest looks very much like 450 Sqns crest.  Any thoughts on that?

Well, it's got a crown on top, so I suppose, depending upon how much one wishes to stretch the rest that bears no resemblance.

Offline my72jeep

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Re: New Chinook Sqn
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2012, 15:09:26 »
Not during the time leading up to unification and the first few years beyond. Note the "ARMY" painted on the side of the L19 at http://www.warbirdalley.com/l19.htm. Scroll down on http://www.ody.ca/~bwalker/RCAF_10261_10287_detailed.html until you see references to "Army Aviation Tactical Training School at CJATC, Rivers Camp, Manitoba" and "Royal Canadian Armoured Corps (RCAC) Helicopter Troop in Germany in 1962". These were Army-owned aircraft, operated and maintained by Army personnel, wearing Army uniforms and their Regimental or Corps cap badges (RCEME in the case of the maintainers) and the Commonwealth/British Army wings. After unification, these aircraft plus the Kiowas and Twin Hueys that replaced them, were owned by Mobile Command (Army) until Air Command was formed in 1975.

Had the travesty of unification not happened, there would be no discussion about linking Canadian Army Aviation units to RCAF Squadrons today

And that paragraph People, sums up loachman's views as to what is wrong with Canada's army.
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Offline Strike

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Re: New Chinook Sqn
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2012, 15:14:26 »


And that paragraph People, sums up loachman's views as to what is wrong with Canada's army.

Actually, knowing Loachman, those are his views of what is wrong with the RCAF.   ;D
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Offline Loachman

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Re: New Chinook Sqn
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2012, 15:29:45 »
Actually, I have nothing against the RCAF at all.

Unless they were paying Hellyer.

As for the R**F, I would have nothing against it, either, if Tac Hel was put back where it belongs.

Offline Danjanou

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Re: New Chinook Sqn
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2012, 15:33:08 »
Not our 450 Squadron. There was an RAAF Squadron designated "450". There is no link between the two beyond the number. That number could also have been used in several other flying services around the world as well - so what?

Which a quick use of Googlefu shows is the case including a USAF unit in Germany and an Air Cadet unit in the UK.
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Offline my72jeep

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Re: New Chinook Sqn
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2012, 15:40:22 »
I hear you Loach.
A Griffin was in Wawa today and my 4 yo says "look daddy an army helicopter". I then say to her " no its an Air Force helicopter" to which she says" But it's green." now what do you say to that?
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: New Chinook Sqn
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2012, 15:43:02 »
The 4xx squadron designations were used in WW2 by Commonwealth air units.  My understanding is that the various nations avoid duplicating sqn numbers as a courtesy.  When 450 (Canada) was created, the predecessor unit from the RAAF was overlooked initially, but later an agreement was reached between the RAAF and the CF.
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Offline Loachman

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Re: New Chinook Sqn
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2012, 17:42:19 »
Yes - largely to avoid "who's on first" confusion, as every Commonwealth air force had a No 1 Squadron at the time.

Perhaps the UK Air Cadet Squadron would offer to share their battle honours.

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Re: New Chinook Sqn
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2012, 17:43:38 »
now what do you say to that?

"Many Air Forces have green helicopters"

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Re: New Chinook Sqn
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2012, 19:34:05 »
We should call it 1st Aviation Regiment and throw their wedgie hats into the furnace.... ^-^
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Re: New Chinook Sqn
« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2012, 19:51:03 »
We should call it 1st Aviation Regiment and throw their wedgie hats into the furnace.... ^-^


Actually wedge caps have a distinguished history in the Canadian Army ~ see here.

... ... ... etc
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Offline Loachman

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Re: New Chinook Sqn
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2012, 23:13:17 »
We should call it 1st Aviation Regiment and throw their wedgie hats into the furnace.... ^-^

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Re: New Chinook Sqn
« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2012, 04:06:26 »
That reminds me; at my new unit the RAAF Air Defence Guards are allowed to wear their berets, while the Australian Army (they have some engineers here I think?) were prohibited b/c of danger of skin cancer or something ridiculous that I heard 3rd-hand through my new co-workers. 

Maybe I should start wearing my RCAF beret just to poke the bear ('roo?)  Or my fur hat?  Choices, choices....   :blotto:
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Re: New Chinook Sqn
« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2012, 13:36:09 »
Quote
  Actually wedge caps have a distinguished history in the Canadian Army ~ see here. ... ... ... etc


OMG, they look awful!

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Re: New Chinook Sqn
« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2012, 14:07:38 »
Actually light infantry and rifle regiments wore glengarrys as far back as about 1880 ...



... and they still wear a variant of them as ceremonial dress today.


It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concerning Government, (1698)
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