Author Topic: Canada's First Nations - CF help, protests, solutions, etc. (merged)  (Read 493515 times)

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aesop081

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Re: Warmington: Send the army to help Attawapiskat
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2011, 12:30:00 »
What would you call it? :)

It does not matter what i, or you, call it. This is not a task for the military. Call it whatever you want but saying that "the military is there for operations, both foreign and domestic" is wrong.

In Canada, we have releif agencies who are qualified and capable of dealing with this. It is for them do to it, not the CF.

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Re: Call for CF to help First Nation (merged)
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2011, 12:40:41 »
That's what I am thinking as well.  Although, the military is there for operations, both foreign and domestic. 

It does not matter what i, or you, call it. This is not a task for the military. Call it whatever you want but saying that "the military is there for operations, both foreign and domestic" is wrong.

In Canada, we have releif agencies who are qualified and capable of dealing with this. It is for them do to it, not the CF.

That being said there are certain instances where we can do more than those agencies, in this case NO. Natural Disasters YES.

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Re: Warmington: Send the army to help Attawapiskat
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2011, 12:48:29 »
True enough, maybe operation isn't the word to use.  What would you call it? :)

In order for the CF to go in and assist, I beleive the Premier of Ontario has to call the PM and make the case for the deployment of troops, like the Premier of Manitoba did in May, and has done in the past. IF  this were to be done, then I beleive the CDS (and staff at CANCOM) would give the required orders. It indeed would be an operation.


Now, Attawapiskat being a First Nation that is funded by the Federal government, for the most part, and administered through INAC - the question is: Who has jurisdiction? Ontario or the Federal government?





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Re: Call for CF to help First Nation (merged)
« Reply #28 on: December 05, 2011, 13:00:56 »
Jim -- On top of that, such a request has to go through Public Safety, IIRC, who will also determine whether there is a more appropriate agency available to take on the task.
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Offline foresterab

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Re: Warmington: Send the army to help Attawapiskat
« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2011, 13:24:29 »

Now, Attawapiskat being a First Nation that is funded by the Federal government, for the most part, and administered through INAC - the question is: Who has jurisdiction? Ontario or the Federal government?


Emergency events are covered off via MOU with the provincies.  Costs associated with provincial response agencies are then billed back to the FN who in turn passes them on to INAC for re-imbursment assuming all costs are found valid.

In terms of deploying the Armed Forces the Federal Government does have the jurisdiction to enter and act on the reserve lands only but given the issues involved I highly doubt that this would happen absent of Ontario's consent.  i.e. drinking water and flooding issues involving upstream water supplies off reserve (Ont.), health care dollars (Ont. and Federal $$), health care facilities and standards (Ont.), building codes (Ont. standard although the Fed. gov't can ignore if desire IIRC).  "Little crown" Ontario does not have the right to enter and artibtrarily start changing things as treaty is with "big crown" Canada.

Honestly I've had to deal with this some for fires on Metis settlements and Reservations here in Alberta which is the basis of my comments above but not 100% on issues like health care, and building codes.  There's also some vague clauses in INAC on crown representatives showing up and how the role of the Indian Agent (I belive that is still the formal term) would administer rights but now you're into lawyer-ese I don't deal with.

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Re: Call for CF to help First Nation (merged)
« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2011, 13:39:03 »
Personally, I suspect that the question of jurisdiction and funding is a bit of a tangent; I believe it's more important to note that what the CF can do is not remotely the same as what it should do.

Can we mobilize all kinds of Construction Engineering people, strap them onto pallets, and LAPES them into Attawapiskat (their whininess at this mode of delivery notwithstanding)? Yes.

Should we? I've seen nothing yet to justify it; no.

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Re: Call for CF to help First Nation (merged)
« Reply #31 on: December 05, 2011, 13:47:23 »
I believe we do not do LAPES anymore, and have not for a decade so that option will be removed. Possibly the runway will take a Herc though.
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Re: Call for CF to help First Nation (merged)
« Reply #32 on: December 05, 2011, 14:03:02 »
The precident has been set; we sent a ROWPU to another reservation when they were having an infrastructure breakdown.

Like I said, we can apply splints, pressure dressings and TCCC to the problem, and probably better than anyone else, but unless the underlying problems of corruption and mismanagment are addressed and resolved then there will be no real solution.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

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Re: Call for CF to help First Nation (merged)
« Reply #33 on: December 05, 2011, 14:12:58 »
I believe we do not do LAPES anymore, and have not for a decade so that option will be removed. Possibly the runway will take a Herc though.
I know that we no longer have a LAPES capability; that was the plan's only snag.   

The runway's only 3,495 ft; you'll see Cessna Caravans and DASH-8s, but no Hercs.



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Re: Call for CF to help First Nation (merged)
« Reply #34 on: December 05, 2011, 14:27:21 »
I know that we no longer have a LAPES capability; that was the plan's only snag.   

The runway's only 3,495 ft; you'll see Cessna Caravans and DASH-8s, but no Hercs.

Twin Otters too...though watching those guys getting LAPES'ed on their pallets would have been funny just to hear the crying and screaming.

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Re: Call for CF to help First Nation (merged)
« Reply #35 on: December 05, 2011, 14:55:37 »
Like I said, we can apply splints, pressure dressings and TCCC to the problem, and probably better than anyone else, but unless the underlying problems of corruption and mismanagment are addressed and resolved then there will be no real solution.

Concur and well said. When some of the leaders of the First Nations are held accountable for their actions things might change.
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Re: Warmington: Send the army to help Attawapiskat
« Reply #36 on: December 05, 2011, 15:15:09 »
In order for the CF to go in and assist, I beleive the Premier of Ontario has to call the PM and make the case for the deployment of troops, like the Premier of Manitoba did in May, and has done in the past. IF  this were to be done, then I beleive the CDS (and staff at CANCOM) would give the required orders. It indeed would be an operation.


Now, Attawapiskat being a First Nation that is funded by the Federal government, for the most part, and administered through INAC - the question is: Who has jurisdiction? Ontario or the Federal government?


Jim -- On top of that, such a request has to go through Public Safety, IIRC, who will also determine whether there is a more appropriate agency available to take on the task.

All partially right,

The way it goes is that the municipality must call a state of emergency and ask for help from the Provincial EMO, Provincial EMO must exhaust all possible avenues of approach. Then Provincial EMO must delcare a state of emergency and ask for formal help from the Federal Government through Public Safety Canada. Federal Government will then decide what resources are needed and will send them to the area. The CF's is usually the last line of defence for an emergency like this.

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Re: Call for CF to help First Nation (merged)
« Reply #37 on: December 05, 2011, 21:09:33 »
Yeah, my blood is boiling... shared with the usual caveats... yellow font is my emphasis

Attawapiskat asks third-party manager to leave
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2011/12/05/attawapiskat-manager-response.html?cmp=rss

Quote
The third-party manager sent by the federal government to handle the desperate housing situation in Attawapiskat in northern Ontario has been asked by the band to leave, CBC News has confirmed.

Attawapiskat Chief Theresa Spence told CBC News that she had informed the band manager of her decision.

"I advised my band manager I don't want them in my community … doesn't work for our community … we should focus on the crisis, not on other things," she said.

The government said earlier it had chosen Jacques Marion, from the accounting and consulting firm BDO Canada, as its third-party manager for Attawapiskat. Marion was to exercise signing authority for all department spending and would decide which band staff are required to run its program and services.

Spence said the minister responsible for First Nations "didn't listen."

"We'd like to work together but put third party away … We've demonstrated we have our deficit down. We don't need a banker to come and tell us what to do," the chief told CBC News.

Marion and other federal officials arrived earlier Monday in the First Nations community and were ready to get to work, Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Minister John Duncan said.

After being asked to leave, Marion "wished to respect the volatile situation and is currently not in the community," Duncan's office said in a statement.

Marion remains in full control the community's funding from Aboriginal Affairs and hopes to work with the community to address urgent needs, the statement added.

"It is extremely worrying that the chief and council are not open to outside assistance. Minister Duncan met with Chief Theresa Spence and Grand Chief Stan Louttit and reiterated that our government's priority is to ensure that residents of Attawapiskat have access to safe, warm, and dry shelter."

Duncan urged the chief and band council to work with the third-party manager, his office said.

About 1,800 people live in the northern Ontario community, where a severe housing shortage has forced families to live in tents and unheated trailers, some without access to running water and electricity. Many others live in crowded, substandard housing.

Local leaders declared a state of emergency at the end of October.

The decision last week to appoint a third-party manager angered Spence, who described the move as "very shameful." Spence has said the government has focused too much attention on the band's finances instead of working to solve the housing crisis.

The government says it has given Attawapiskat around $90 million since 2006, including $4.3 million for on-reserve housing. It has also ordered an independent audit of the community's finances.

"If there are problems identified, we will take immediate action to address them to ensure long-term solutions for the community," Duncan said.

'Lost week of inaction'
During question period Monday, New Democrat MP Charlie Angus accused the government of failing to act quickly enough to solve the housing crisis.

"Temperatures have again dropped below -20 and the people of Attawapiskat are again suffering through another lost week of inaction," the MP said Monday.

Angus, whose riding includes the northern Cree community, demanded to know when its residents will have access to safe housing.

In response, Duncan reiterated that the federal government is responding to the crisis.

"Supplies are being sent into the community and materials for renovating homes have been ordered by chief and council," he said. "I strongly urge the chief and council to work with the third-party manager in the interests of the people."

However, Angus rejected the answer as "bunk," saying Duncan needs to do more to fix the situation.

"Where is his plan to guarantee that these people will be moved into safe proper housing with a long-term plan?" Angus asked. "Where is that plan?"

Spence meets First Nations chiefs
Spence was in Ottawa Monday to meet Assembly of First Nations National Chief Shawn Atleo, along with several other First Nations chiefs who are in the capital to set their agenda for the next year. The AFN has backed Spence's call for more help, and Atleo is expected to address the reserve's issues in a key speech on Tuesday.

Inadequate housing is a regular item on the AFN agenda and will likely figure prominently during this week's meetings of aboriginal leaders. They are also planning for a summit with Prime Minister Stephen Harper in January, but housing is not explicitly on the agenda.

Attawapiskat is only the most recent example of how overcrowding and dilapidated infrastructure on reserves can lead to community-wide health and safety issues.

Sounds like she doesn't want anybody to find out how much dough she's making...
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Offline Rifleman62

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Re: Call for CF to help First Nation (merged)
« Reply #38 on: December 05, 2011, 22:45:15 »
Just the opportunity for some to continue to abuse the  taxpayers.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/12/05/ottawa-to-introduce-legislation-to-create-a-modern-and-transparent-election-system-for-native-reserves/

Ottawa to introduce legislation to ‘create a modern and transparent election system’ for native reserves

NP - John Ivison - Dec 5, 2011

The Harper government will introduce new legislation Tuesday aimed at building a stronger election system on native reserves across Canada.

Senior government sources said the biggest change will be to extend the length of term in office for chiefs and band council members to four years from two, in order to create more stability on reserves. The source stressed that the new legislation will operate in tandem with the Financial Transparency Act, introduced last month, which requires chiefs and councillors to publish their salaries and expenses. The move is being taken in response to pressure from native organizations such as the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs, who have called for reforms that would remove their elections from under the Indian Act system.

Native groups have argued that this system has weaknesses that destabilize First Nations governments. “With the two year term of office, our community research has shown that newly elected chiefs and councils have little time to learn their responsibilities before it’s time for another election,” said the Manitoba chiefs. “If a new chief and council are elected the cycle starts all over again. This political instability does not make First Nations very attractive to long-term investment and economic development.”
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Re: Call for CF to help First Nation (merged)
« Reply #39 on: December 05, 2011, 22:52:53 »
The way I read the previous article about the third party getting the boot from the town...it's like dealing with a village where everyone has dysentery, but the council would rather the government deal with the sickness only, instead of also looking at what is causing the sickness.
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Re: Call for CF to help First Nation (merged)
« Reply #40 on: December 05, 2011, 22:55:03 »
The way I read the previous article about the third party getting the boot from the town...it's like dealing with a village where everyone has dysentery, but the council would rather the government deal with the sickness only, instead of also looking at what is causing the sickness.

 :+1: The chiefs and councils don't want transparent accountability.....they can't cover up their scams.....
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Offline jasonf6

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Re: Call for CF to help First Nation (merged)
« Reply #41 on: December 06, 2011, 06:53:46 »
Quote
The decision last week to appoint a third-party manager angered Spence, who described the move as "very shameful." Spence has said the government has focused too much attention on the band's finances instead of working to solve the housing crisis.

Ummm, the band's finances are THE reason for the housing crisis in my opinion. 

That's it, time for a complete overhaul and investigation into EVERY band's finances, regardless of how much the Liberal Party cries racism.  The above quote should be the final straw.

The band's all across the country always complain that they want to self-govern, self-police and self-manage yet when there is a "crisis" they come running to us. 

Offline Robert0288

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Re: Call for CF to help First Nation (merged)
« Reply #42 on: December 06, 2011, 08:01:19 »
Government: Here is 90 million, go self govern and run things for yourself
Band: Sweet, 90 million

*few years later*

Band: Help we need houses, we're living out of tents
Government:  What did you do with the 90 million?
Band: I said we need houses! Why are you oppressing us?  This is proof of the systematic abuses of our people and yet another failure of the federal government.
Government:  What did you think the 90 million was for?  That can build a lot of houses
Band: ...... racists....

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Call for CF to help First Nation (merged)
« Reply #43 on: December 06, 2011, 08:11:10 »
You know, democracy can work anywhere.

If you watched the various newscasts, the almost unanimous answer of residents to the question "what happened to the 90 Millions?" was "I don't know". But the tone meant: "I didn't know we got 90 millions".

So here's my 2C worth: Every time the Federal government sends money to a band council, they should also mail a notice to all the resident on reserve that would say: "Hi, we just provided your band council with  XXX $ - here is a copy of the draft or transfer confirmation - Just FYI."

I bet internal questions would start to fly real soon and the band members would not stand for deflections in the council's or chief's answer.

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Re: Call for CF to help First Nation (merged)
« Reply #44 on: December 06, 2011, 08:35:19 »
:+1: The chiefs and councils don't want transparent accountability.....they can't cover up their scams.....
I read this morning they did not allow the third party manager on the reserve.

Fine.

If were to become insolvent and the bank sent the Sheriffs to seize my stuff and I refused them entry - how long do you think it would be before I was face down in the snow with a few of WPS finest counselling me about my behavior? Not long I reckon.

Maybe a forensic audit of the finances are in order - then arrest the theives.

Oh sorry now I'm being "oppressive and racist"

My apologies.  :facepalm:
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Re: Call for CF to help First Nation (merged)
« Reply #45 on: December 06, 2011, 09:00:39 »
Maybe the short term answer is to tell the bands: "No transparency, no money"

Having the third party manager deliver the cheque and bank account papers (with him/herself as the cosigning authority) would send a strong message, and the idea of informing eveyone on the band as to haow much money is being delivered would also be a great game changer.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

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Re: Call for CF to help First Nation (merged)
« Reply #46 on: December 06, 2011, 09:16:05 »
I have no idea if this is already happening or what, but I think it would be good if the well-run Bands could provide guidance/assistance/expertise to ones that are having a hard time. There is no reason why the good ideas can't be used for the benefit of everyone, and I imagine that there are some issues that would be quite similar across the board.

I think another issue is that a problem years in the making isn't going to be solved in a day. Yeah, there needs to be some band-aid solutions to get people into something safe, but like everyone is saying, there needs to be long-term solutions that actually solve the problem (looking at where the money is going, if funding is adequate/appropriately earmarked, etc.).

There is clearly a need for greater transparency and accountability. And this isn't just important for First Nations communities, I mean there's a town in NS that had the whole town council disbanded and is now getting a forensic audit.

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Re: Call for CF to help First Nation (merged)
« Reply #47 on: December 06, 2011, 09:40:04 »
I have no idea if this is already happening or what, but I think it would be good if the well-run Bands could provide guidance/assistance/expertise to ones that are having a hard time. There is no reason why the good ideas can't be used for the benefit of everyone, and I imagine that there are some issues that would be quite similar across the board.

I think another issue is that a problem years in the making isn't going to be solved in a day. Yeah, there needs to be some band-aid solutions to get people into something safe, but like everyone is saying, there needs to be long-term solutions that actually solve the problem (looking at where the money is going, if funding is adequate/appropriately earmarked, etc.).

There is clearly a need for greater transparency and accountability. And this isn't just important for First Nations communities, I mean there's a town in NS that had the whole town council disbanded and is now getting a forensic audit.

Well run bands? There aren't that many.  Besides, from what I've seen the First Nations IMO are xenophobic - they resist what others suggest. It might be worth a shot but I wouldn't hold my breath.
You are right.....it will take years to change the attitude  from "you owe us" to "we can do this ourselves thank you" without the need for our "oppressive racist" rule. Education would be a good start.

94 million dollars was p!ssed away - no accountability - and the thieves should be jailed.

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Re: Call for CF to help First Nation (merged)
« Reply #48 on: December 06, 2011, 09:45:50 »
Maybe the short term answer is to tell the bands: "No transparency, no money"

Having the third party manager deliver the cheque and bank account papers (with him/herself as the cosigning authority) would send a strong message, and the idea of informing eveyone on the band as to how much money is being delivered would also be a great game changer.

You think that would work? Strange, it hasn't worked for provincial and federal governments.....oh, they will give you transparency, then feather their own nests through a variety of schemes.....think Quebec and gazebos' for instance....
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Re: Call for CF to help First Nation (merged)
« Reply #49 on: December 06, 2011, 09:47:07 »
Well run bands? There aren't that many.  Besides, from what I've seen the First Nations IMO are xenophobic - they resist what others suggest. It might be worth a shot but I wouldn't hold my breath.
You are right.....it will take years to change the attitude  from "you owe us" to "we can do this ourselves thank you" without the need for our "oppressive racist" rule. Education would be a good start.

94 million dollars was p!ssed away - no accountability - and the thieves should be jailed.

I couldn't agree more.

CBC radio did a piece on Attiwapiskat just the other day. When the 3rd party manager was mentioned in an interview with one of the residents, the person became irate, and went off on a tangent about how they weren't children, and could handle their own affairs. Not exactly what's been shown however.

When one is under debt management, or bankruptcy, they typically have a lot of their affairs handled by a 3rd party. I fail to see why that isn't applicable in this case.
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