Author Topic: Leave Recall and Other Leave Issues  (Read 37221 times)

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Offline DSoup

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Leave Recall and Other Leave Issues
« on: August 29, 2011, 17:07:24 »
Someone in my CoC was ordered back from leave early and I'm wondering where should I go looking for a reference that states if the CF orders you back from leave they have to pay for your return.  I've heard this numerous times before and wanted to make sure that the $150 they incurred to change their flights was not needlessly spent.  I didn't see anything in the leave manual, where should I go snooping next? 

Offline Wickes

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Re: Ordered Return from Leave
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2011, 17:28:37 »
Leave Manual - Section 2.7.02

CBI 209.54 and CFAO 209-15

Offline DSoup

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Re: Ordered Return from Leave
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2011, 19:35:43 »
must have skipped it, thanks

Offline NEM3sis

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Leave Recall and Other Leave Issues
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2014, 18:33:38 »
Greetings,
I am currently experiencing two admin issues due to someone in my chain who doesn't seem to be very reasonable and I could need some guidance/assistance.

First: I am currently on an exercise I was not supposed to be on, the exercise started last Saturday and until approx 2 weeks ago I was on a course and my course got shortened by 1-week ending last Friday. Well I had planned for last weekend a trip with my fiancee to Toronto to see the Broadway touring act Wicked. I did not have a leave pass since it's the weekend and I am within the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal triangle. Well I got called and told to come back to Kingston to go on the exercise as the other corporal got a medical emergency that required her to stay home. I managed to see the play however had to check out of the hotel. Now I plan on writing a memo to try to get my money for the hotel (and maybe mileage back to Kingston?) refunded but I already know that a person up in my chain will try to play the "no leave-pass - not our problem card" so is there any reference I can use to substantiate the lack of leave pass due to being inside the triangle but still incurring expenses forced by the recall?

Second problem: while still on course I got pressed by my CoC to provide a leave plan for the rest of the FY. I did and requested the first week of December. My intent is to take my fiancee down south and marry her there on her birthday during the first week  of December (a week she already asked to be on leave through her civilian employer). Same person from my chain (I might start thinking she got something against me) refused these date due to a requirement she made up (previous persons in her position confirm it was never part of the SOP) to have 2-person manning the office at all time and the sgt will be away on course at this period and she will be on a first-aid course on base, leaving the two corporals in the office. At that point I went in the office after-hour to staff a memo and a leave pass requesting my time off for first week of December, this memo got minuted favorably by both the MCpl and Sgt. It would appear that while I am here on exercise, she is stalling the memo and won't submit it up the chain as there are some format she doesn't like (she counted too many "and" word to her liking within the memo and she believe that me stating that those dates are the best for my fiancee within her work schedule is not a valid reason as the military does not care about members family and it is irrelevant). Furthermore, to that other dates for her First aid course on base has been identified for her to attend.
So how can I get her to push the memo to its intended adressee.

Regards
« Last Edit: May 14, 2016, 06:31:13 by milnews.ca »

Offline Shamrock

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Re: leave recall, and other leave issues
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2014, 18:48:37 »
Leave policy manual has all your relevant refs.

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: leave recall, and other leave issues
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2014, 19:00:10 »
Why would the CF reimburse you.   Seriously. 

Your leave pass hasnt been approved yet.  It sounds like it hasnt been denied either. 
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Offline NEM3sis

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Re: leave recall, and other leave issues
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2014, 19:00:40 »
Quote
209.54 - Reimbursement of Expenses when Recalled from or on Cancellation of Leave
 
209.54(1) (Application) Subject to paragraph (2), an officer or non-commissioned member who is recalled to duty from leave in accordance with QR&O 16.01 (Withholding of and Recall From Leave) or whose approved leave has been cancelled for service reasons may be reimbursed for:
 a.transportation and travelling expenses in accordance with CBI 209.83 - Transportation and Travelling Expenses – Move of Officers and Non-commissioned Members on Posting or of Dependants for the member and, where applicable, their dependants to the place of duty from the place from which the member was recalled and for the return journey if the member resumes leave immediately after completion of the duty for which the member was recalled; and
 b.additional expenses resulting either from the cost of breaking contractual arrangements or cancellation fees that were made specifically for the purpose of an approved leave period.
 
209.54(2) (Submission of claims for reimbursement) Claims for reimbursement under paragraph (1) shall be submitted in accordance with orders and instructions issued by the Chief of the Defence Staff.

I understand that, however I did not have a leave pass and that is what she is gonna try to get me with
I already went thru the leave manual, it's just not that simple black or white.

For problem #2 Leave policy manual is not so much the problem as she is withholding a memo addressed to higher. I want that memo to go up now so that it can get resolved and I can book my vacation. Failing that, as soon as I touch ground back in Kingston I will request a meeting with the addresse and ask her if she has seen my memo addressed to her.
is there any document that clearly state a memo need to be swiftly expedited to its addresse?

Offline NEM3sis

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Re: leave recall, and other leave issues
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2014, 19:03:29 »
Why would the CF reimburse you.   Seriously. 

Your leave pass hasnt been approved yet.  It sounds like it hasnt been denied either.

the reimbursement part is in the past, re-read my post. I wanna be reimbursed my hotel for being recalled from my weekend to go on exercise.

problem #2 I haven't booked my vacation yet because I do not have a leave pass, but by the look of thing someone does not want me on leave at this time due to her first aid course.

I don't mean to insult your intelligence but there is two problems there and they are clearly separated, please don't intermix them even though they both involved the same person.

Offline Shamrock

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Re: leave recall, and other leave issues
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2014, 19:14:17 »
Why would the CF reimburse you.   Seriously. 

Your leave pass hasnt been approved yet.  It sounds like it hasnt been denied either.

Because they recalled him off leave and as a result, he incurred cost.  The manual also states a leave pass is not required singly for weekends.

Offline NEM3sis

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Re: leave recall, and other leave issues
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2014, 19:20:15 »
Thank you Shamrock, I missed the no-need for leave pass for weekend, I'll have to look again and there is one problem fixed. Much appreciated

Offline DAA

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Re: leave recall, and other leave issues
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2014, 19:32:15 »
Thank you Shamrock, I missed the no-need for leave pass for weekend, I'll have to look again and there is one problem fixed. Much appreciated

Not so quick.  First off, you were NOT on leave.  Regardless of whether it was a weekend or not.  There is a purpose for requesting a Leave Pass be approved with strictly "Weekend" leave and your case is exactly why.  Every CF member is subject to recall at any time.  A "huge" consideration" prior to recalling someone to duty, is their current "status" at the time of the recall.  So if you did not have a leave pass in hand, to cover your ***, whether it was a weekend or not, you are SOL far as any kind of reimbursement is concerned.

With respect to your other issues, if you don't get satisfaction from your direct CoC, go straight to your CO.

PS - you might want to avail yourself and read QR&O 16.01 para 2.  http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-queens-regulations-orders-vol-01/ch-16.page

Simply put......

(2) An officer or non-commissioned member on leave may be recalled to duty only:
 1.because of imperative military requirements; and
 2.when the member's commanding officer personally directs the member's return to duty.

« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 19:59:19 by DAA »
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Offline NEM3sis

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Re: leave recall, and other leave issues
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2014, 20:24:58 »
Thanks DAA, it helps.
I am not looking for a free ride here, I am looking for a fair ride. I wasn't supposed to be part of the ex, I was within the triangle, in fact I wasn't even supposed to be at the unit till the week after.
On that note, I would hate to be my OR as it seems I will cover my *** from now on and they will see a lot of weekend leave passes from me in the future.

Offline PMedMoe

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Re: leave recall, and other leave issues
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2014, 21:04:09 »
On that note, I would hate to be my OR as it seems I will cover my *** from now on and they will see a lot of weekend leave passes from me in the future.

Do it anyway.  I have recently begun to submit leave passes for every weekend I have plans (whether I'm staying in the area or not) due to a recent fastball.  I have also entered these leave dates on the unit calendar.  Better safe than sorry.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: leave recall, and other leave issues
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2014, 21:52:26 »
Thanks DAA, it helps.
I am not looking for a free ride here, I am looking for a fair ride. I wasn't supposed to be part of the ex, I was within the triangle, in fact I wasn't even supposed to be at the unit till the week after.

crap happened, things changed and you didn't have a leave pass in.

I go thru this with my unit;  if I don't have a weekend leave pass in, I am fair game for duty as it comes up.  If I am not on what my units 'duty' is, and I want to leave our geo area, or if I want to 'ensure I won't be recalled' (family in town, etc)...I put in the leave pass for the weekend.

Your job is to work when the CAF needs you to, regardless of "if you weren't scheduled for the exercise".

 ::)
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Offline ModlrMike

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Re: leave recall, and other leave issues
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2014, 00:43:07 »
crap happened, things changed and you didn't have a leave pass in.

I go thru this with my unit;  if I don't have a weekend leave pass in, I am fair game for duty as it comes up.  If I am not on what my units 'duty' is, and I want to leave our geo area, or if I want to 'ensure I won't be recalled' (family in town, etc)...I put in the leave pass for the weekend.

Your job is to work when the CAF needs you to, regardless of "if you weren't scheduled for the exercise".

 ::)

True, but this approach only leads to people not being able to plan for anything for fear of being recalled. As much as he was on normal time off vs leave, the fact that he was recalled and incurred a cost associated with that recall should entitle him to some form of compensation.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: leave recall, and other leave issues
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2014, 07:40:02 »
I have many weekends off, none of them are reflected in my leave record/jacket.  Because I am on not technically "on leave" if I don't have a leave pass submitted.  Not sure about his unit, but if I get called in on a weekend, I may be given a NWD (we are considered shiftworkers).

Sounds to me like a 'lesson learned'.  Important weekends should be covered with a wknd leave pass. 

As for the OP stating he is going to submit a leave pass for EVERY weekend, I hope he understands that doesn't necessarily equal they will all be approved.  I know how that would look to my CofC.  They would all be doing a  :facepalm:.  This isn't a union job or a bank we work for;  there is no entitlement to 'every weekend off'. 

Don't get me wrong, I understand where he is coming from;  I've been recalled from (actual) leave before, and had what I thought was a weekend off turn into a working weekend/weekend day last minute.  Now I submit leave passes for weekends that I have hard plans for as far in advance as possible, giving the unit advance notice.  I had plans for a weekend in July and submitted the wknd leave pass in April.  It was signed that day and I was able to continue with my plans, knowing I was at least covered financially should that leave be canned at a later date.  That is as good as it gets.
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Offline Ostrozac

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Re: leave recall, and other leave issues
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2014, 08:10:01 »
The references seem pretty clear to me. When you take off for a weekend, and have no leave pass, you are still on weekend leave.

Weekends and Holidays are included on Form CF 100 when they form part of a leave period in conjunction with other types of leave that are reckoned in working days. No CF100 is required for a member proceeding exclusively on weekend leave and/or designated holiday, except:
when travelling to a foreign country, or to a country other than the one where the member is employed;
when travel benefits are requested (eg. LTA); or
when required for ration accounting purposes for members authorized to draw rations on a continuous basis.


Your CO is certainly able to recall you from this weekend leave under QR&O 16.01, but CBI 209.54 certainly seems to apply for reimbursement of expenses, including broken travel plans, and duty travel status from your leave location to your place of duty. And note that this decision can only be made by a Commanding Officer, and cannot be delegated. Your supervisor cannot call you in from weekend leave without the CO's blessing --QR&O seems pretty clear on that. So Company Level bugouts on a Sunday morning need to be approved by 9er.

Personally, I wouldn't require my soldiers to have a signed leave pass for weekend travel (as "the soldier requests one" isn't one of the reasons given in the Leave Policy Manual), and I'd certainly recommend to approve travel expenses if my CO recalled a troop back to Ottawa from Toronto or Montreal on a Saturday night.

Offline NEM3sis

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Re: leave recall, and other leave issues
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2014, 08:13:30 »
Eye in the sky, nowhere did I say I was gonna submit a leave pass every weekend
I'm waiting for you to push the line: "if the Army wanted you to have a wife/family, they would have issued one to you" anytime now

 ::) no offense

Offline DAA

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Re: leave recall, and other leave issues
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2014, 08:22:45 »
True, but this approach only leads to people not being able to plan for anything for fear of being recalled. As much as he was on normal time off vs leave, the fact that he was recalled and incurred a cost associated with that recall should entitle him to some form of compensation.

Based on the circumstances, I don't believe their is an entitlement for anything.  You could look at CFTDTI Chap 5, Art 5.26 bit this could be a real "stretch" of the imagination.

My utmost favourite, is CFTDTI Chap 5, Art 5.24 (Recall to Workplace).  Due to it's obscurity, not many people take advantage of this when the situation does arise.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/assets/FORCES_Internet/docs/en/caf-community-benefits/canadian-forces-temporary-duty-travel-instruction.pdf

Other than that, Weekend Leave passes are sort of like a "Do Not Disturb" sign.  If you are going to incur out of pocket expenses for a weekend excursion or sorts, then by all means, put one in and if you are challenged on it, just tell them why!  But don't be submitting a weekend leave pass for all 52 weekends out of the year.  Your CoC will definitely not like you for this.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2014, 08:25:19 by DAA »
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: leave recall, and other leave issues
« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2014, 09:34:51 »
Eye in the sky, nowhere did I say I was gonna submit a leave pass every weekend

On that note, I would hate to be my OR as it seems I will cover my *** from now on and they will see a lot of weekend leave passes from me in the future.

Those are you own words there bud.

Quote
I'm waiting for you to push the line: "if the Army wanted you to have a wife/family, they would have issued one to you" anytime now

You are a LS, why would I say something like that (as stupid as it is...) about the Army?

Quote
::) no offense

I'm not offended.  But your posts in this thread give an impression of someone who thinks that they determine their own work schedule (your comments about your course ending early and the exercise you weren't supposed to be on) and if they don't get the leave they request, they are being 'wronged' (based on the leave pass you've submitted for Dec and have yet to get an Approved or Denied status on).  Your CofC has the authority to minute the leave pass memo and if the AA (CO or delegated Officer) denies based on those comments, it doesn't necessarily mean someone is out to get you.  I see this type of thinking in my unit with some of the less experienced folks too. 

Request an update on your leave pass for Dec thru your immediate superior "as you are trying to finalize travel plans". 

You are a LS, therefore a NCO.  Have you tried looking thru the CF reg's and investing some time into your own PD and GSK?  I know many of the regs but only because I took the time to read them, and know them, so I could advise my superiors and look after my subordinates.  That started at the Cpl rank where I learned some very important lessons on why GSK/Admin/reg's knowledge is important from a Inf MWO who taught Mil Law on my CLC in '93.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-queens-regulations-orders-vol-01/ch-16.page

16.01 - WITHHOLDING OF AND RECALL FROM LEAVE

(1) Leave may be withheld from an officer or non-commissioned member only when there is a military requirement to do so.

If your CofC determines there is a "military requirement" for you to be at your place of duty, for an exercise, for whatever reason, it doesn't always mean someone doesn't like you. 




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Offline NEM3sis

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Re: leave recall, and other leave issues
« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2014, 09:55:03 »
Purple trade, Corporal now - didn't update my profile sorry

a lot of does not equal all so don't twist the dictionnary to your own end.

I don't determine my own work schedule, I am stating my situation with as much detail as possible, if I was determining my own work schedule as you imply, each and every phone call they did to me while I was in Toronto, I would have ignored with a call back later saying: Hey I was in theater and left my phone at the hotel, bunch of missed phone calls, What's up?" but I am of good faith and answered all phone calls and missed half the show anyway cuz I was busy texting back and forth with my SSM.

Don't worry, I've been looking at all the regs all week, only came in here yesterday for some further guidance.
you haven't done much other than try to discredit me, other people at least put some valuable input.






 

Offline Shamrock

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Re: leave recall, and other leave issues
« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2014, 09:55:41 »
...But your posts in this thread give an impression of someone who thinks that they determine their own work schedule...

Good point.  Work hours are published in orders.  What is the duty status of a member during the off-duty hours?  On leave subject to recall or on duty outside a duty area?

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: leave recall, and other leave issues
« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2014, 10:18:19 »
you haven't done much other than try to discredit me, other people at least put some valuable input.

I've given you some perspective, that you don't like as it doesn't support you 100%.  That's not discrediting you (IMO).

I pointed out in my first post that your Dec leave has neither been approved or denied.  And later suggested you request an update thru your immediate superiors.

But, as you seem to need a HFR now, I'll go on RLS.  Cheers.
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: leave recall, and other leave issues
« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2014, 10:50:12 »
I am probably going to make enemies here, but here in a nutshell is the concept of leave/duty: In the CF, if you are not "on leave", that is do not have an approved leave chit, then you are on duty, even though outside working hours and not otherwise required for duty. The crown is happy to let you go about your affairs as you see fit - subject to recall at any time required, however.

Thus, if you have special plans (I underline special) for a given week-end, or wish to go out of area such as to make your recall difficult or costly, it is up to you to request week-end leave in writing to avoid the unpleasantness of recall. Should your CoC refuse you such week-end pass, heed the warning sign. It is probably because your CoC is aware of circumstances that may lead to recall on that particular week-end.

Those week end pass can also be your butt saver. I always used to put one in when I planned to go to Vancouver for the week-end. Once, BC Ferries decided to can the Sunday night sailings due to a severe storm in Georgia Strait and I had to come back to the ship, late, on the Monday morning. I did not get into trouble, however because Command was aware that I was in Vancouver and therefore wasn't making this up to cover for another reason to be late.
 

Offline George Wallace

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Re: leave recall, and other leave issues
« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2014, 11:01:10 »
True, but this approach only leads to people not being able to plan for anything for fear of being recalled. As much as he was on normal time off vs leave, the fact that he was recalled and incurred a cost associated with that recall should entitle him to some form of compensation.

NO.  This does not lead to people not being able to plan for anything for fear of being recalled.  It encourages the practice to submit a Leave Pass for such cases where you have something planned, even if it is within the 'Geographic Area'.  The fact that he did not follow this precaution to let his CoC know that he had plans, is not the fault of his CoC.  What is that saying: "Lack of planning on your part does not constitute and emergency on my part."  If anyone has any plans such as those in this example, "Cover Your ***" and submit a Leave Pass.  In this case, it would appear that the member's CoC had no knowledge of their plans to go to Toronto and stay overnight.
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