Poll

Considering this thread, please indicate your preference wrt CH 147 crew:

Sr/Jr FE.  The status quo currently and how the job was performed in Afghanistan from 08-11.  Also the US Army system.
FE/LM.  The system formerly used by Canada.  Still used by the UK and abandoned by the US Army after trials years ago
Sr FE/Tech crewman (AVN).  Although TCs have gotten a bad rap on the CC 17, there is feasibility to this system.
None of the above.  If using this option, please indicate your solution below.

Author Topic: CH 147 Backenders (FE/LM) Debate  (Read 56605 times)

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Offline Ditch

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Re: CH 147 Backenders (FE/LM) Debate
« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2011, 10:41:55 »
There is some serious resistance to that in the upper echelon of the FE trade and the AVN trade as well. 
Resistance is futile... :-)

In all reality, the airborne NCM trade is changing dramatically.  With the almost elimination of the FE position on most modern fleets - a move to a "jack of all trades" MOSID is near.  Just take the FWSAR recommendations - FE and NAV/ACSO have been replaced with Tech Crewman and Sensor Operator.  Notice that it doesn't specifically state any MOSIDs that we currently have - just a generic recommendation.  That leaves it up to the AVN/FE/LM/ACSO/AESOP mafias to fight it out for positions on the new platform.
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Offline HercFE

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Re: CH 147 Backenders (FE/LM) Debate
« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2011, 22:59:52 »
I have been watching this  thread for a while and have held my tongue in check as not to infer my personal feelings. My belief is the FE trade needs to under go a huge paradigm shift. We are no longer a person in the cockpit that manages fuel and pressurization. We are now airborne operations NCMs  conducting task from anything from MX15 operations to rigging and dropping SAR Bundles to SAR techs on the ground. We also carry out tech duties on the ground and airborne as well as traditional FE duties such as fuel management, pressurization and weight and balance. The FE trade is very dynamic and does not need to be pigion holed. You have a huge pool of people that have a technical background  that can be employed in a vast variety airborne and ground duties.We should use them instead of creating new positions.
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Offline Ditch

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Re: CH 147 Backenders (FE/LM) Debate
« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2011, 12:48:14 »
IMHO - I concur 100% with what HercFE just said.  I would much rather have a FE that knows how to strap down a load in the back, operate an EO/IR, conduct weight and balance and de-snag an aircraft.  The maintenance background that Canadian FE's bring to the plate is an essential element to an effective SAR crew.  TAL crews (C-17, J Herc) can get away with just 2 pilots and 2 LMs - FWSAR needs the full skillset for its rapidly changing mission.
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Offline Scoobs

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Re: CH 147 Backenders (FE/LM) Debate
« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2011, 23:21:50 »
Cofirmed: current (emphasis on current as we all know that things can change in the CF rather quickly) manning for the new Chinook is x2 pilots, x1 FE, and x1 LM.

No, I say again, no, tech crewman is currently part of the crew.
Variety is the spice of life...

Offline HeavyHooker

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Re: CH 147 Backenders (FE/LM) Debate
« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2011, 05:34:41 »
Ack.  Thanks Scoobs!

Offline beenthere

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Re: CH 147 Backenders (FE/LM) Debate
« Reply #30 on: September 14, 2011, 10:30:13 »
I flew on CH-113As and CH-147s with the FE&LM combo and it worked very well. Each had their own special training and background to draw from and they worked together. The FE helped the LM with the passengers and load tie down and other related jobs and the LM helped the FE with his duties. On a fuel stop the LM refueled the aircraft while the FE did the after/before flight checks,tightened up the leaks and did the paperwork.
On field operations the LM liaised with the customers and checked that sling loads were rigged properly and checked that cargo loads were within legal standards etc.
Neither myself or any other FEs had ever rigged sling loads,didn't know much about cargo regulations and we didn't have time to get involved in that aspect of the mission as keeping the aircraft in flying condition was usually a full time job.
 On away from home operations such as in the Arctic or other remote locations we often crewed up with 2 FEs and 2 LMs as one of each wasn't enough to keep the show on the road.
I doubt very much that we ever had any more than 3 or 4 senior FEs on the Squadron at any one time and that was only at the beginning of the CH-147 operation when all of the FEs were from the Squadron's former CH-113A operation. Even at that we were pretty green. There was a huge learning curve. Our experience in remote operations and being able to fix things rather than send for a repair crew was our greatest strength.
The LMs  had to work outside the box in rigging unconventional loads and deciding if we could carry some of the things that we were tasked to move.Many of our taskings involved slinging things that were one of a kind moves of large loads that required a lot of rigging and reriging in order to get the load to fly right. That kind of work requires someone who can dedicate their knowledge and efforts to the task.
People who came to us from the TACHEL  world were about as green as the recent FE "recruits" as they had mostly served as cabin boys who looked after the passengers and had a notable lack of experience on the technical side of operations.

My choice would be for the FE&LM combo as they each bring their background training,knowledge and experience to the operation and given the right training and experience they would complement each other to make a great back end team.
But not lately. If I could do it all over again I would  change one thing.

Offline HeavyHooker

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Re: CH 147 Backenders (FE/LM) Debate
« Reply #31 on: September 14, 2011, 13:37:19 »
I understand what you are saying "beenthere" but the issue I have is that FE's today all have their TAMS course and rigging loads is not that complicated.  The pams hold your hand and walk you through the different loads to be honest.  C of G and Wt & Bal are equally simple.  Strapping down loads is not complicated and for the last 3 years, FE's have done all of this with no incidents.

When you bring on a LM and take out an FE (or Tech CM for that matter), are you gaining or losing?  You are bringing on somebody who is qualified to do all of the things that an FE is qualified to do but you are losing years of technical experience that can sometimes make or break a mission.  I don't think that there is a single person who operated out of CHF(A) in since 2008 that would prefer to have an LM over an FE, apart from the LM's who were there as observers of course.

I just can't see the reasoning behind it other than one union is better than another and each trade fights for its own survival.  When you take away the politics behind this whole discussion, and cast it solely in the spot light of common sense and what is right for the airframe, I just honestly can not see the benefit of an FE/LM team.  Again, my two cents.

HH

Offline beenthere

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Re: CH 147 Backenders (FE/LM) Debate
« Reply #32 on: September 16, 2011, 10:41:14 »
Rigging loads for the army support role is obviously not complicated as over time a pretty much fool proof system has been developed.The CH-147 never had a problem with C of G or Wt & Bal as you would have to work very hard to build a load that would fall outside the limits. Not an issue.Same goes for load tie down.The army support role is the easy part.

However, once you go outside of that role and get tasked with moving big and unusual loads which don't have any slinging points or instructions you're getting into a whole new game. When we got the first CH-147s we started getting tasked to move all of the things that had been accumulating for years all over the country because there had been no way to move them. There's no way that the same people (FEs) who had a full time job keeping the aircraft running and fixing snags on an away from base operation can also figure out a plan to rig a load that has never been slung before without losing their sense of priority. The aircraft has to be working properly in order to sling the load and the load has to fly properly or the aircraft can't move it.

Common sense will tell most people that there's no way that the same people can look after both ends of the operation.
To give an example of the industrial equivalent a crane operator on a construction project operates a huge crane that is maintained by a mechanic who knows all about how the crane works to lift a component that has been rigged by iron workers who have rigged it to lift so that it will stay level while the bolt it into place. A couple of years ago I watched a team install new blades on a huge wind powered generator and that's exactly how it works.

Given that in the military people get moved away from a job just about the time that they become proficient and experienced we must assume that whoever goes out to do something that's outside the box will be doing something that's totally new to them so it's best that there be a split in specialties.

Forward thinking: The board of inquiry concluded that the crash was caused because the FEs who rigged the tower for sling loading were not aware that the sling that broke was damaged because they hadn't realized that it could come in contact with the sharp surface of the steel brace. They had been involved with trying to rectify an engine oil pressure problem with the helicopter and had been distracted from the rigging task when they positioned the sling over the sharp side of the brace.

That's exactly what will happen when you try to make someone an instant jack of all trades in a system where everyone is just passing through on a 3 or 4 year posting. 


But not lately. If I could do it all over again I would  change one thing.

Offline beenthere

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Re: CH 147 Backenders (FE/LM) Debate
« Reply #33 on: September 16, 2011, 12:53:01 »
Sounds like an Army Air Corps trade to me.... :stirpot:
I started flying on CH-113As with army aviators. At the rate that they were destroying the CH-113A fleet it would have become extinct by the early 1990's rather than living on to retirement for some and a civilian career for others.
But not lately. If I could do it all over again I would  change one thing.

Offline Loachman

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Re: CH 147 Backenders (FE/LM) Debate
« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2011, 13:18:47 »
And at the rate that RCAF pilots were simultaneously destroying other fleets...

Offline beenthere

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Re: CH 147 Backenders (FE/LM) Debate
« Reply #35 on: September 16, 2011, 13:20:14 »
http://www.colheli.com/ Professional operators usually fly the same aircraft (Chinook) with just a pilot and copilot and they fly a whole lot more than military helicopters do.
However they don't waste their time and money training crews and then moving them on to another aircraft or occupation where they have to train them all over again.
Obviously the military can't operate that way but it certainly shows how the military can complicate a rather simple operation and still not get it right.
But not lately. If I could do it all over again I would  change one thing.

Offline beenthere

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Re: CH 147 Backenders (FE/LM) Debate
« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2011, 13:31:24 »
And at the rate that RCAF pilots were simultaneously destroying other fleets...
Actually the R.C.A.F. started out with 6 and the R.C.A.S.C. started out with 12. I may be wrong but I think that all but 1 of the R.C.A.F. 113s survived to retirement.
As for other fleets each has their own history. The ones with the highest attrition rates were the aircraft where pilots flew unsupervised such as Sabers and T-33s.
 
But not lately. If I could do it all over again I would  change one thing.

Offline Ditch

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Re: CH 147 Backenders (FE/LM) Debate
« Reply #37 on: September 16, 2011, 16:59:56 »
where pilots flew unsupervised such as Sabers and T-33s.
Classic - good one... :-)
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Offline Inverted

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Re: CH 147 Backenders (FE/LM) Debate
« Reply #38 on: September 19, 2011, 08:09:05 »
I'm not normally one to post on-line (I think this is my first post here after reading for awhile) but for once I may have something useful to add.  I'm one of the guys posted Down Under with the Australian Army Chinook Sqn so I'll add another perspective.

The Aussies have both Loadmasters and Aircrewman Technical ((AT) their version of an FE) on the CH-47. The -47 is the only aircraft that they employ an AT on, their Blackhawks and MRH-90 are crewed solely by LM's.

I was a little skeptical of the LM concept when I first got here but I think I was tainted a little by my experience with LM's in Canada.  Just like in Canada, LM is not a direct entry trade, the difference here is that you can apply for LM from any trade; I would say the vast majority come from the Combat Arms with the rest coming from aviation related trades (the Australian Army has some aviation related support trades which work really well, but that's another thread!). The man job of the LM's is to direct/con the aircraft, take care of loading and rigging and keeping the performance data up to date.  The key extra duty they have is that they are the experts on door-gunnery, especially since they -47's here are armed with 2 x M134D's in the forward windows.

The one major problem for the LM's is that they are not allowed to conduct any maintenance related tasks, to the point that technically they are not even allowed to do panel checks after the pre-flight.   

The AT's here operate very much like FE's do in Canada, they do the pre/post flight inspections/user maintenance and in-flight troubleshooting, plus they direct the aircraft and do the same loading and rigging as the LM's, they just do it under the supervision of a LM.

In the end, with the exception of the maintenance tasks, LM's and AT's receive the same training (they both attend the same basic course where they learn to con aircraft, rig loads, etc) and in reality they can work any station in the back of the aircraft.
 
The other key difference here is that the Chinooks are crewed with three back-seaters for the vast majority of all flights, the only time we go with a smaller crew is for test flights, when it's just an AT in the back, or for critical flights and a third back-seater can't be found. The Aussies decided it does no good to train to operate with a crew of 2 when you know that you will always go to war with a crew of 3. So crewing here is normally 2 x LM's and 1 x AT, but it's not unusual to go out with 2 AT's and 1 LM (which I think it the ideal solution). Normally the 2 LM's will man the right and left guns (windows) and the AT will man the ramp (and thus have access to the maintenance panel). This is why the LM's tend to be the gunnery experts.

All that to say I think the ideal solution includes both FE's and LM's with a few caveats:

1) LM must be split away from the traffic tech trade. I think it would be more beneficial to have a number of former Combat Arms doing the job then former traffic techs.
2) LM's must be provided with similar technical training as pilots (if not more). If they can train me to do a pre-flight (to be honest I'd be lucky to identify a hammer 50% of the time!) they can train LM's to do it; and ultimately relieve some of the pressure on the FE's.
3) We should look beyond the 2 man cabin crew and push for a crew of 3 back-seaters, train like you fight.

Anyway my $0.02AUD (which is about $0.015CAD right now, damn exchange rate!! :'(

Cheers :cdn:

Offline HeavyHooker

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Re: CH 147 Backenders (FE/LM) Debate
« Reply #39 on: September 20, 2011, 13:45:06 »
Inverted, thanks for the post from down-under.  I have spoken with a few of the Aussie FE's overseas wrt the M134 mounting system before we mounted ours and their system did seem to work pretty well although when I told them how we operated with two FE's they were obviously partial to our system as it lightens the workload (ie. more people doing pre-flight in stead of sitting in the air conditioning!).  If you are who I think you are, I am pretty sure that I have flown with you as well on Roto 8 when you came over to fly with us Canucks...

A couple of points of concern:

1)  Our LM's must be drawn from the Traffic Tech trade.  Most are career AF guys with no Cbt Arms experience.  When we fly overseas we have a DG on the left gun that must be a cbt arms soldier.  The point is to have a soldier that can advise the a/c which COA to follow on the ground in the event of us having to land outside the wire.  Canadian LM's are all Herc or C17 guys that have zero tactical experience.  If we started taking Infanteers and making them LM's, I think that would be an outstanding idea and that they would then bring so much more to the table in a Chinook crew.  I do not see that happening any time soon however.

2)  Training LM's to do pre-flights.  Without any technical background, this is a tough nut to crack.  Even the pilots that help out with pre-flights, the FE's ask them to only do the less technical aspects.  The phrase that was put to me during my trg went something like "Where are the parts that can kill you, the top and inside the a/c right?  Get the pilots to walk around and check panels."  Now that is a bit harsh as a I know that most pilots are perfectly capable but there still is not that intimate technical background and most FE's would rather just do the check themselves than have someone other than another FE help out.  Also, the P-Series manuals that governs all airworthiness issues dictates very specifically what LMs are allowed to do and any maintenance related activities are forbidden, including checks.

3)  When you say LMs should be split from Tfc Tech and have Cbt Arms troops become DGs why not just bring back Mission Specs to be the Gunnery Experts and have two FE's, who are both qualified to do a LMs job?  We all have the TAMS course for rigging loads, can do C of G and Wt and B and the paperwork involved with all of those things.  With two FEs on board, you have the technical background, all of the required quals, Combat Experience from the last 3 years and the background of working in a Tac Hel environment.  I still think that this is the only plan that makes any sense without giving up more than you gain.

I realize that "beenthere" does not agree but the FE trade has evolved from where it was when he was an engineer on our old B and C models.

I would love to hear more thoughts from all of you.

HH

aesop081

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Re: CH 147 Backenders (FE/LM) Debate
« Reply #40 on: September 20, 2011, 14:17:02 »

 The point is to have a soldier that can advise the a/c which COA to follow on the ground in the event of us having to land outside the wire.

That may be the intent, to somebody, but it is rather nonsense. There is training in the AF, specifically for aircrews, for what to do should you find yourself on the ground "outside the wire"........combat arms guy not required.


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Without any technical background, this is a tough nut to crack.

CC-130J...............Take a look at what they are teaching the LMs to do. Not that tough a nut to crack.

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I know that most pilots are perfectly capable but there still is not that intimate technical background

I've got allot of hours listening to junior FOs being grilled by ACs about systems, how things work, what does what and how, in excruciating detail. I'm pretty confident that they have a serious in-depth technical background of the birds they fly. Depending on the aircraft you fly, the FE know less than the rest of the crew, hence why i am not always quick to say "the FE knows best".




Offline HeavyHooker

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Re: CH 147 Backenders (FE/LM) Debate
« Reply #41 on: September 20, 2011, 15:42:28 »
Quote
That may be the intent, to somebody, but it is rather nonsense. There is training in the AF, specifically for aircrews, for what to do should you find yourself on the ground "outside the wire"........combat arms guy not required.

Not sure how you can call this non-sense.  If you think that BSERE, ASERE (which way too many waivers were granted and most aircrew did not even have prior to deployment) and CAC - although very good courses - stack up against actual tours on the ground by Cbt Arms troops, than yes, you will have an argument here.  As a former Cbt Arms soldier, I can tell you that there is no comparison at all and a couple weeks in the bush and some stress positions do not make up for actual ground tours on top of being a soldier be their primary job for years.  No way, no how.  I think you would also get some rather heated arguments from the ground pounders out there as well.  If your argument were taken one level further, why have Mission Specs when you can give any aircrew a course on it?

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Depending on the aircraft you fly, the FE know less than the rest of the crew, hence why i am not always quick to say "the FE knows best".

Tell me of an aircraft where the LM knows more than the FE.  This is getting more heated than I wanted when I started this board but I have a hard time believing that - technically speaking - the LM is on an equal footing with the pilots and FE's which is what this entire post is about (CH 147 Backenders).  On every airframe I have flown on, I have had pilots come to me and ask technical questions because they just did not know the answers.  There are definitely situations where pilots will know more than FE's in certain systems but to say that the FE knows less than pilots wrt to systems knowledge is plain BS.  Its just that easy.


aesop081

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Re: CH 147 Backenders (FE/LM) Debate
« Reply #42 on: September 20, 2011, 17:21:17 »
which way too many waivers were granted and most aircrew did not even have prior to deployment)

Unrelated issue. The training exists and it is available. That members are deploying without is a leadership failiure.


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stack up against actual tours on the ground by Cbt Arms troops,

Only one part of the equation. Having tours on the ground an expert does not make.


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As a former Cbt Arms soldier,

As a former combat arms soldier myself i can tell you that i was never trained for situations introduced in ASERE or CAC.  With the exception of those PPCLI guys that teach (or have) at CFSSAT, you would be hard pressed to find a combat arms guy in line units that knows what SAFEs are, knows and understands recovery procedures and has been trained in R2I. Given that, your combat arms crew guy offers precious little insights beyond likely being in better shape and highly likely, a much better shot. If an experience combat arms guy was so critical to the survival of the crew, all our tactical fleets would have them, TACHEL or otherwise.


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why have Mission Specs when you can give any aircrew a course on it?

The role of Msn Specialist was never to be a member of the crew that would know what to do when they hit the ground.

As for LM vs FE on the CH-147, i have no vested interest how it turns out so i will withdraw from that portion.

« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 17:24:13 by CDN Aviator »

Offline The Gues-|-

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Re: CH 147 Backenders (FE/LM) Debate
« Reply #43 on: September 20, 2011, 19:02:34 »
Unrelated issue. The training exists and it is available. That members are deploying without is a leadership failiure.

Other than the afternoon nav ex, gas hut, PWT 1-3 and basic SERE, I am curious to know what this other training is you speak of.

Only one part of the equation. Having tours on the ground an expert does not make.


As a former combat arms soldier myself i can tell you that i was never trained for situations introduced in ASERE or CAC.  With the exception of those PPCLI guys that teach (or have) at CFSSAT, you would be hard pressed to find a combat arms guy in line units that knows what SAFEs are, knows and understands recovery procedures and has been trained in R2I. Given that, your combat arms crew guy offers precious little insights beyond likely being in better shape and highly likely, a much better shot. If an experience combat arms guy was so critical to the survival of the crew, all our tactical fleets would have them, TACHEL or otherwise.


You are ex Combat Arms and saying this!? I am surprised and somewhat disappointed.  All tactical fleets should employ Combat Arms soldiers for over seas operations.  Why? they are more comfortable on the ground. They have sufficient training and experience and they know why they are there.  In the unfortunate event we went to ground it's the ground guys show.  I wouldn't want it any other way and the impression I received while in theatre was nothing but positive and clear as to why Combat Arms soldiers were employed as part of the crew.  Which can't be said for the LM/FE mix.  LM's just did what the FE's and door gunners were already capable of doing.  The LM/FE caused a lot of friction between the 2 trades but at the end of the day the job got done LM or no LM.  Solution? 2 FE's 1 door gunner for unslung loads, 2 FE's 2 gunners for slung loads.

The role of Msn Specialist was never to be a member of the crew that would know what to do when they hit the ground.

There are Mission Specialists on Chinooks?   wasn't that a NAV position on the Kiowas and/or Griffons? Slight difference from door gunners.  Regardless if it was their responsibility or in their job profile to know what to do when they hit the ground, I'd feel a bit more comfortable with someone who knows what to do on the ground in hairy situations.

It makes more sense to train a Combat Arms soldier in a couple Aircrew skills than train Aircrew in ground tactics.  This has been proven.   When it comes to Chinooks, throw out the LM option, FE's and door gunners live on.  ;D


*edited by mod to fix quotations*
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 21:57:33 by Good2Golf »
We aint making goddamn cornflakes here!

aesop081

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Re: CH 147 Backenders (FE/LM) Debate
« Reply #44 on: September 20, 2011, 19:20:48 »
They have sufficient training and experience and they know why they are there.

And no one else does ? Only slightly pretentious. Doesn't take a genuis to know you're on the ground because the aircraft stopped flying  ;D

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In the unfortunate event we went to ground it's the ground guys show.

Far from it. When aircrews hit the ground, it becomes JPRCCs show. At the crash, it is the crew commander's show.


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I'd feel a bit more comfortable with someone who knows what to do on the ground in hairy situations.

Your personal comfort level does not translate into a requirement. I know what to do on the ground in "hairy" situations (background notwithstanding) and am comfortable enough that was training was provided ( BSERE,ASERE, CAC, weapons, foreign weapons, never ending briefings.......  ) was enough to get me from the crash site to the HH-60 or MV-22 and whatever happens in between.

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When it comes to Chinooks, throw out the LM option, FE's and door gunners live on.  ;D

That last part belongs on a badge.......
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 19:30:07 by CDN Aviator »

Offline HeavyHooker

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Re: CH 147 Backenders (FE/LM) Debate
« Reply #45 on: September 20, 2011, 20:41:14 »
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Far from it. When aircrews hit the ground, it becomes JPRCCs show. At the crash, it is the crew commander's show.

I know of one, and only one, aircraft comd that said he would ask for "advice from the DG in the event of a crash".  ALL OTHERS - without fail - said in every crew brief the conditions under which we would land outside the wire and immediately following that the DG would direct the defence of the aircraft while the AC and FE secured the kit that needed to be secured.  It was then the SME's show.  This was the unofficial SOP.

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Your personal comfort level does not translate into a requirement. I know what to do on the ground in "hairy" situations (background notwithstanding) and am comfortable enough that was training was provided ( BSERE,ASERE, CAC, weapons, foreign weapons, never ending briefings.......  ) was enough to get me from the crash site to the HH-60 or MV-22 and whatever happens in between.

No, not a requirement but lets bring common sense back for a second here.  The fact that you think you know what to do on the ground in "hairy situations" because of the above few courses and briefings - of all things - is quite scary.  I don't know any infanteers or engineers, tankers or artymen who would say that they are comfortable in the ground in "Hairy Situations" so the fact that you do is only slightly pretentious, if I may borrow that phrase.   >:D ;D

aesop081

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Re: CH 147 Backenders (FE/LM) Debate
« Reply #46 on: September 20, 2011, 20:50:41 »
if I may borrow that phrase.   >:D ;D

Damn....i knew i should have gone for that copyright !!!!   ;D

I have faith in the training i received, the skills i have and the head on my shoulders. We did not need a combat arms guy in Libya to "take over" if case we crashed in bad guy country. We did not have that need because we were properly trained and the CSAR was ready to do what it is supposed to do when s**t hits the fan.

I'm happy to agree to disagree here and say that i wish i was up flying rather than on here talking about it.

Offline The Gues-|-

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Re: CH 147 Backenders (FE/LM) Debate
« Reply #47 on: September 20, 2011, 21:01:18 »
And no one else does ? Only slightly pretentious. Doesn't take a genuis to know you're on the ground because the aircraft stopped flying  ;D

Right.



Far from it. When aircrews hit the ground, it becomes JPRCCs show. At the crash, it is the crew commander's show.


I was specifically talking about "at the crash".  I still disagree.  During our pre-flight briefs there were discrepancies between pilots on who would take charge if we went to ground. AC or Gunner?

 
Your personal comfort level does not translate into a requirement. I know what to do on the ground in "hairy" situations (background notwithstanding) and am comfortable enough that was training was provided ( BSERE,ASERE, CAC, weapons, foreign weapons, never ending briefings.......  ) was enough to get me from the crash site to the HH-60 or MV-22 and whatever happens in between.

That training provided would be more than enough for anyone in order to make it from a crash site to an HH-60 or MV-22, LAV, whatever.  Provided you were just FOB hopping relatively in close proximity to FOBS, Coalition Forces and KAF.  In Afghanistan, with the amount of resources (mostly American) allocated for significant events should only cause modest worry.  It wouldn't be close to enough training if you were going to an isolated FOB or potential hot LZ's and had to extract.  Not to mention where future conflicts will be that include Canadian Chinooks without the luxury of our American counterparts.


[/quote]
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Offline The Gues-|-

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Re: CH 147 Backenders (FE/LM) Debate
« Reply #48 on: September 20, 2011, 21:12:25 »

No, not a requirement but lets bring common sense back for a second here.  The fact that you think you know what to do on the ground in "hairy situations" because of the above few courses and briefings - of all things - is quite scary.  I don't know any infanteers or engineers, tankers or artymen who would say that they are comfortable in the ground in "Hairy Situations" so the fact that you do is only slightly pretentious, if I may borrow that phrase.   >:D ;D



disregard^
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 21:45:29 by The Gues-|- »
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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: CH 147 Backenders (FE/LM) Debate
« Reply #49 on: September 20, 2011, 22:39:18 »
...It makes more sense to train a Combat Arms soldier in a couple Aircrew skills than train Aircrew in ground tactics.  This has been proven.

Proven?  ???

Could you post "proof", please?


In the opposite, the higher-speed an aviation unit gets, the more it departs from the "army guy on board, good to go" mantra.  Dedicated "green platoon" training for aviators is the "proven" way to go - proven by 160th SOAR(A), being adopted by some Tac Hel units already in Canada, and quite reasonable to think that such training would be a clear part of the MHLH Squadron operational training regime.  Folks who would dismiss Level-C CAC/R2I training, thinking that having a cbt arms guy/gal on board is a better solution are not looking at things from the aviation self-proficiency point of view. 

To be clear about CH147D DGs...it was decided mutually between CAS and CLS prior to the deployment of the first crews into theatre that door gunners would be provided from the Army as a means of both providing expertise door gunnery skills (and even the DGs needed to learn about on-aircraft effects on gunnery) and secondly to reinforce Air-Land integration as a mutual activity.  There was not the slightest hint of "the door gunner will be a tactical beacon to the 'ground un-aware' aircrew should the aircraft be force down" in any of the discussion between CAS and CLS.  Frankly, the opposite was almost true as it was questioned whether the DGs should in fact undergo CAC training, as being downed with aircrew only would place a combat arms soldier in the situation of operating without mutual support that he might otherwise expect when working within a section or higher within a ground force element.

Lastly, there has been no definitive policy as to the final FE-LM manning concept because both trades are still in enough flux that it would be imprudent to do so.  Anecdotal stories, whether from the far past or more recent times, may provide context within which future decisions will be taken but do not, in and of themselves, prescriptively make a case one way or the other.  I have had LMs in the past who were incredibly professional and through their own initiative spent a lot of time learning much about the CH147, qualitatively more capable than a number of FEs I was crewed with, so much so that those LMs were signed off by the SAMEO to conduct A/B checks on the aircraft, and before one says that couldn't happen in today's environment, P-03 and EITEMS would support such a qualification if the proper training was provided, in much the same way as the C-17 and C-130J LMs do so.

Ironically, I think the most valuable takeaway in the thread so far is that more folks should be prepared to do Level-C CAC/R2I training before they take to the skies overseas.  I can definitively say that had we more time during the initial deployment of the CH147D capability, this would have occurred without question.


Regards
G2G