Author Topic: Recycling the Sea King  (Read 40781 times)

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Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Recycling the Sea King
« on: June 19, 2011, 22:22:08 »
Just a question for the flying types out there. How feasible would it to take the Sea Kings with the fewest flying hours on them and have them rebuilt and modified to carry the Searchwater radar like the RN AEW Sea King variants do? It would give the Navy a nice little capability. Thoughts?
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
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aesop081

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Re: Recycling the Sea King
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2011, 22:26:29 »
Razor blades. Definitely razor blades.

OK, maybe pop cans too.......

Offline Ditch

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Re: Recycling the Sea King
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2011, 22:29:46 »
At least two or three will be spared for gate guardians - stick them on a stick and don't look back.
Per Ardua Ad Astra

Offline medicineman

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Re: Recycling the Sea King
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2011, 22:31:52 »
At least two or three will be spared for gate guardians - stick them on a stick and don't look back.

...with an umbrella under in case parts continue to fall off onto any gawkers  ;D.

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Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Recycling the Sea King
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2011, 09:46:00 »
The average CF Sea King, despite being nearly 50 years old, has only about 1/3 the airframe hours of it's heli-logging cousin.

The two big issues are:

1. Money. Who would pay for the required full gut and avionics/sensor upgrade?

2. PYs.  What other capability are you willing to give up to provide bodies for this capability?

Btw, why do we need AEW?

Offline captloadie

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Re: Recycling the Sea King
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2011, 10:48:44 »
Well, if we already had our replacements, we probably could get a nice chunk of change from them, if the below article is factual.

http://www.casr.ca/doc-news-danish-sea-kings.htm

However, seeing as we don't have a viable replacement operational, we will likely miss out.

Offline Not a Sig Op

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Re: Recycling the Sea King
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2011, 11:26:42 »
The average CF Sea King, despite being nearly 50 years old, has only about 1/3 the airframe hours of it's heli-logging cousin.

Wouldn't flying in a salt-water enviroment vs flying on land close up a big gap between then in wear and tear?
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aesop081

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Re: Recycling the Sea King
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2011, 11:29:22 »
Wouldn't flying in a salt-water enviroment vs flying on land close up a big gap between then in wear and tear?

CF corrosion control programs for maritime fleets tend to be pretty aggressive. This would likely mitigate the situation.

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Recycling the Sea King
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2011, 14:30:08 »
Wouldn't flying in a salt-water enviroment vs flying on land close up a big gap between then in wear and tear?

It is not so much corrosion (which is carefully monitored), as the wear and tear a sea king suffers just sitting on a ship for 6 months.  Basically, because the ship is always moving, the helicopter is, too.

Back to basic question:  why would we need to do this?

Offline beenthere

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Re: Recycling the Sea King
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2011, 16:21:32 »
Why would we need to is right. However if there was a need there's no doubt that it could be done and the Sea Kings would provide great service in a number of roles.
The scrapyards have provided civilian operators with aircraft that make lots of money long after the military gave up on them.
 Columbia Helicopters uses the same type (Boeing 107) and if I'm not mistaken some of the scrapped Canadian CH-113 Labradors for logging, fire figting and other purposes. They have a first rate maintenance facility that will  keep their helicopters flying so far into the future that they haven't even considered replacing them.
They're in business to make money so they can't afford to make mistakes.
But not lately. If I could do it all over again I would  change one thing.

Offline beenthere

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Re: Recycling the Sea King
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2011, 16:31:12 »
http://www.colheli.com/colheli.html Columbia Helicopters. They have 8 of our old worn out Labradors making money for them.
But not lately. If I could do it all over again I would  change one thing.

Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: Recycling the Sea King
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2011, 17:02:06 »
It is not so much corrosion (which is carefully monitored), as the wear and tear a sea king suffers just sitting on a ship for 6 months.  Basically, because the ship is always moving, the helicopter is, too.

Back to basic question:  why would we need to do this?
You don't think having an airborne early warning capability for the navy would be a good thing? I think anything that extends what we can detect and track would only help with picture compliation.
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
Tradition- Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid
Former RCN Sailor now Retired

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Recycling the Sea King
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2011, 20:22:56 »
You don't think having an airborne early warning capability for the navy would be a good thing? I think anything that extends what we can detect and track would only help with picture compliation.

Ex-D,

What do you think we bought the Cyclone to do? 

Offline beenthere

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Re: Recycling the Sea King
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2011, 00:05:36 »
Considering the progress of the Cyclone to date and the potential for getting it into service within the next decade recycling Sea Kings may be necessary.
But not lately. If I could do it all over again I would  change one thing.

Offline beenthere

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« Last Edit: June 21, 2011, 00:25:15 by beenthere »
But not lately. If I could do it all over again I would  change one thing.

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Recycling the Sea King
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2011, 08:56:06 »
Let us also not forget that there will be no ships to carry a sea king on in our navy very shortly.

The haul down system being installed in the frigates is not compatible with a sea king.

Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: Recycling the Sea King
« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2011, 16:02:13 »
Let us also not forget that there will be no ships to carry a sea king on in our navy very shortly.

The haul down system being installed in the frigates is not compatible with a sea king.

Ah good point I would have thought it would have been a universal system but am proven wrong. Thanks SKT.
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
Tradition- Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid
Former RCN Sailor now Retired

Offline recceguy

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Re: Recycling the Sea King
« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2011, 16:46:32 »
Let us also not forget that there will be no ships to carry a sea king on in our navy very shortly.

The haul down system being installed in the frigates is not compatible with a sea king.

Is that what they call the 'bear trap'? What makes it unsuitable for other airframes? I thought other navies with different helicopters adopted our system and use it all the time?
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Offline h3tacco

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Re: Recycling the Sea King
« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2011, 17:33:10 »
While many different countries (USN, RAN, JMSDF, etc)  use a Helicopter Hauldown Rapid Securing Device (HHRSD) "aka beartrap" each one is designed and rated for its own airframes. The probe and trap for the Sea King is different than the probe and trap on the Cyclone. They handle different aircraft weights, different moments and have different clearances. Further differences are that a Sea King has a tail probe while the Cyclone does not, which means a completely different means of straightening the aircraft prior to bringing it in the hangar.  To accommodate the Cyclone the entire HHRSD has been modified on the Halifax-class frigates and it is not backwards compatible. 

It is probably technically feasible to make the new HHRSD "partially" compatible with the Sea King however it is not worth effort to test and certify the new HHRSD with the Sea King. And you probably still could not get in the hangar as the tail guide winches for the Sea King are now nose guide winches for the Cyclone.
 
Plus even if we modified our current Sea Kings to the RN Sea King ASaC Mk 7 they would not fit into the Frigate hangars as the "bag" makes the aircraft considerably wider.   



So a potential AEW Sea King could probably only sail on the current AOR or future AOR/JSS. This alone brings a concept of operations dilemma for a Canadian TG. 

For a AEW Sea King to be really useful basically we would require a larger helicopter carrying ship and different focus of roles for a Canadian TG.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2011, 21:08:04 by h3tacco »

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Re: Recycling the Sea King
« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2011, 18:27:36 »
Cheers :salute:
At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child – miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied, demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless. Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats.
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Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: Recycling the Sea King
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2011, 20:31:21 »
Thank you h3.
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
Tradition- Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid
Former RCN Sailor now Retired

Offline beenthere

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Re: Recycling the Sea King
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2011, 12:50:18 »
If the Cyclone turns out to be a bummer the frigates won't have a helo.
But not lately. If I could do it all over again I would  change one thing.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Recycling the Sea King
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2011, 17:04:37 »
http://www.colheli.com/colheli.html Columbia Helicopters. They have 8 of our old worn out Labradors making money for them.

I know a logging company that found a Sea King submerged in a swamp somewhere in Indonesia, refurbished it, then put it into operation.

Did anyone on here lose a Sea King in Indonesia?
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Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Recycling the Sea King
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2011, 20:29:29 »
If the Cyclone turns out to be a bummer the frigates won't have a helo.

In the unlikely event that the Cyclone turns out to be a total disaster, there are other helos on the market with a nose wheel.  Assuming we could procure something before the Frigates were decommissioned...

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Recycling the Sea King
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2011, 10:26:07 »
Assuming we could procure something before the Frigates were decommissioned...

Even then, there would follow on ships to replace the frigates (one would hope, unless a luminary in Ottawa decides that with the worlds longest coast line, we don't need a Navy).

To add to H3's explanation: His (her?) point is valid for all aircraft operating from ships. Each has specific requirements and the ships accommodate them differently. For instance, the French Mistral class LHA's can only accommodate heavy helicopters at spot number six near the stern, the structure of the ship forward is too weak to take their landing. On aircraft carriers, the tension in the arresting wires is set differently for each type of aircraft, as is the pressure used in the catapults. Its just the way ships are: no universal capability to handle aircraft, but rather a specific capability for each type.