Author Topic: Afghan Detainee Mega Thread  (Read 212830 times)

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Offline Michael Dorosh

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Afghan Detainee Mega Thread
« on: September 14, 2003, 15:39:00 »


This crafty RCR has rendered the bird unable to fly, but will he be able to get it to "sing like a canary?"
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rceme_rat

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JTF2 Ops - PWs - Passage of Info
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2002, 23:25:00 »
Latest news on JTF2 is that they took prisoners at the same time as the PM & MND were saying it was all hypothetical.  The MND doesn‘t find out until Friday, and then doesn‘t see fit to brief the PM until after the weekend.  All this after a picture of JTF2 with PWs was in the Globe and Mail.  

Let‘s guess who the pols try to hang this on.

It also continues to spotlight the ugly spectre of the rules of engagement and SOPs for handling prisoners.  The troops deserve to know these things before they have to decide them on the spot.

Offline Enfield

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Re: JTF2 Ops - PWs - Passage of Info
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2002, 00:33:00 »
I fail to see why JTF2 operatives on the ground in Afghanistan should be expected to pick up the phone on a daily basis and tell Art what they did all day. What did everyone think JTF2 would be doing? Planting daisies?
I don‘t believe that the operations of a military unit in a combat theatre, under foreign authority and operating with allied units, should be of such concern to politicians at home. Once the decision has been made to send them, governmnets role is to step back and not try to control the situation.

I‘m glad that that photo came out, and I hope that it gets turned into a Recruiting Poster by the end of the month.

Chances are, JTF2 has no idea that PW‘s are even an issue.
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Offline Another Recce Guy

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Re: JTF2 Ops - PWs - Passage of Info
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2002, 06:35:00 »
We send our troops to work under foreign command, what the ****  do the military experts in parliament want our guys to do, send the PW here?  Am I the only one who is sick and tried of the guys in Ottawa using the military to try to sore political points?
How will you answer your grandchildren when they what you did in the war?

Also, be careful of those that mistake authority for leadership.

Offline Infanteer

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Re: JTF2 Ops - PWs - Passage of Info
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2002, 09:15:00 »
Here is the link to the picture, I can‘t figure out how to paste it here...
 http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/RTGAMArticleHTMLTemplate/C,A/20020129/wdefen2?hub=homeBN&tf=tgam%252Frealtime%252Ffullstory.html&cf=tgam/realtime/config-neutral&vg=BigAdVariabl  eGenerator&slug=wdefen2&date=20020129&archive=RTGAM&site=Front&ad_page_name=breakingnews

Enfield is right, this should be on a poster....
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Offline Infanteer

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Re: JTF2 Ops - PWs - Passage of Info
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2002, 09:19:00 »
Screw it guys, I can‘t get the link to work, just go find it at www.globeandmail.com
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline Jungle

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Re: JTF2 Ops - PWs - Passage of Info
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2002, 09:32:00 »
tried to get the picture here, but can‘t...
"I am a Canadian, free to speak without fear, free to worship in my own way, free to stand for what I think right, free to oppose what I believe wrong, or free to choose those who shall govern my country. This heritage of freedom I pledge to uphold for myself and all mankind."
- John G. Diefenbaker. July 1, 1960. From the Canadian Bill of Rights.

rceme_rat

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Re: JTF2 Ops - PWs - Passage of Info
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2002, 10:08:00 »
1.  Since the issue is a major one to the ministry right now, the ministry should have asked for info on PWs.

2.  Usually, the senior Canadian in theatre remains responsible for providing sitreps to a HQ back home.

3. Are they under command, or just under op control?

4.  Personally, I put the blame on the pols.  They screwed up by speaking out of turn, or worse, by forgetting that we had sent people there and thus nothing was hypothetical anymore.

Offline Mike Bobbitt

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Re: JTF2 Ops - PWs - Passage of Info
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2002, 10:26:00 »
Here‘s the image:

 

Offline Enfield

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Re: JTF2 Ops - PWs - Passage of Info
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2002, 20:03:00 »
Is JTF2 supposed to call gome immediatley if they fire a round, are shot at, are in a patrol where someone shoots?

rat is right, the PW debate is a little late when there are already soldiers engaged in ground combat in secret missions.

The debate still seems rather academic... what else are they supposed to do with the prisoners? I think the fact that any mission JTF does will be transported, supplied,and intel provided by the US and may likely have foreign troops on it makes the title of "Canadian taken prisoners" rather dubious. Remember, the other prominent object in the photo is a large American helicopter with "USAF" clearly written on the tail.. lets not forget what made the mission possible. And I‘ll bet their maps say "DoD" on them and not "DND"

If a Canuck is covering while a US soldier handcuffs the prisoner, is that a Canadian prisoner? If a Canadian happens to be the first to see the soon-to-be prisoner, but SAS troopers actually bag him, is that a Canadian prisoner? If a Canadian captures him but during the march back lets an American cover/hold the prisoner is that man still a Canadian prisoner?

We participate in the mission, we can‘t just go halfway. Especially when we don‘t have the capabilities to go all the way alone.
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rceme_rat

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Re: JTF2 Ops - PWs - Passage of Info
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2002, 22:37:00 »
The joys of multinational ops.  At least there isn‘t a great language problem between the major players, unlike on most UN ops.  

As for the maps, they probably don‘t say "DoD" either -- more likely they say "Michelin".  I heard that DoD had a very difficult time finding maps - bought up all available supplies in the U.S.

Offline RCA

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Re: JTF2 Ops - PWs - Passage of Info
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2002, 23:50:00 »
There are really two issues here.

1. The military is still the servant of the people of Canada. Therefore SITREPS should be sent back to NDHQ iether daily or unusal occuranse. That is SOP. and I‘d be suprised if that is not the case. NDHQ then breifs the MND who would breif the PM. If this didn‘t happen within 24 hrs after the captures, I‘d be really suprised. The point is the military passes on the info, what the politians do with it is their business. Unfortunaly it looks like the pols screwed the pooch, which is particulaerly bad timings as the 3 PPCLI BG have their move orders now.

2. As to the turning over of prisoner, not an issue as they are under US command and have no resourses to handle POWs. And also just because they turned them over to the US doesn‘t automaticly mean these guys are going to Cuba
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Offline JasonH

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Canada's JTF2 captives vanish at Guantanamo
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2005, 15:22:31 »
Canada's JTF2 captives vanish at Guantanamo
U.S. stymies request for information about fate of Afghans caught in raids
 
a journalist
The Ottawa Citizen

February 14, 2005


CREDIT: Andres Leighton, The Associated Press
Detainees are shown in their cells facing Mecca during evening prayers in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, in this 2002 photo. Canada has an obligation under the law of armed conflict to track the detainees its troops captured even after they are handed over to another country. However, U.S. officials have repeatedly refused to provide details on Guantanamo prisoners.


Individuals captured in Afghanistan by Canadian special forces were transported to the controversial U.S. prison at Guantanamo Bay, but American officials have been reluctant to provide the government with information on what has happened to the captives.

Members of the Ottawa-based Joint Task Force 2 commando unit took at least three prisoners in January 2002 and another four during a raid several months later. But attempts by Canadian officers to find out what happened to the people appear to have been stymied by the U.S.

Canadian officials were told that once the captives were transferred to the American detention centre at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, the U.S. would then decide whether to release them or to continue holding them. At least three of the captives taken in the January 2002 JTF2 raid ended up in Guantanamo Bay, according to records obtained by the Citizen under the Access to Information law. It is not known whether they are still being held there.

American officials also declined to provide further details to the Canadian Forces about what happened to four individuals JTF2 turned over to the U.S after the May 2002 raid.

The U.S. detention facility at Guantanamo Bay has been steeped in controversy since its establishment shortly after the Afghanistan war began. At the time Canadian government officials said they were confident any prisoners turned over to the U.S. would be treated properly by American authorities.

But since then there has been a steady stream of accusations of torture and sexual harassment of the prisoners, all denied by the Pentagon. The latest allegations involve Canadian teenager Omar Khadr, captured by American forces and accused of killing a U.S. soldier in Afghanistan.

FBI agents working at Guantanamo Bay have also raised concerns that support some of the prisoners' allegations about abuse.

Those concerns, made public in December, were contained in e-mails obtained by the American Civil Liberties Union as part of a lawsuit against the U.S. government. Recently a U.S. translator assigned to Guantanamo Bay also emerged with similar stories of abuse.

Asked over a two-day period last week for information on what became of the Canadians' prisoners, Defence Department officials said they did not readily have such details. Numbers of prisoners taken by Canadian troops in Afghanistan were also not readily available, Canadian Forces officials said.

In August 2003, a Canadian military intelligence officer reminded colleagues that Canada had an obligation under the law of armed conflict, as well as a national obligation, to track the detainees its troops captured even after they were handed over to another country.

However, right from the moment JTF2 turned over prisoners to the Americans in January 2002, Canadian military officials ran into problems finding out what happened to the captives. On Jan. 29, 2002, then-Commodore Jean-Yves Forcier wrote Canadian officers tried to check on the status and well-being of the prisoners. "U.S. authorities have maintained the position that they will not necessarily provide a status update concerning the detainees in question," he wrote.

Commodore J.P. Thiffault informed Vice-Admiral Greg Madison's office on Feb. 8, 2002 the Americans "could not advise on the future prospect of the detainees because a determination had yet to be finalized and will not be finalized until transferred to GTMO." GTMO refers to Guantanamo Bay.

Prisoners who were transferred by the U.S. to Guantanamo Bay were hooded, chained and sedated, prompting human rights groups to allege such methods were against the Geneva Convention.

In April 2002, then-defence minister Art Eggleton reassured the International Red Cross Canada remained concerned about the care and treatment of those captured and transferred into the U.S. system.

But when Canadian officials tried to find out what happened to the four people turned over by JTF2 to the Americans after a May 2002 raid on the village of Band Taimore, they were told the U.S would not provide further details. When Mr. Eggleton's successor, John McCallum, tried to find out that September what happened to prisoners, he was also unsuccessful. He was told by his senior military officials that "details on the captured individuals are sketchy at this time."

That joint U.S.-Canadian raid is still controversial because a 70-year-old man and a three-year-girl were killed in the operation. Canadian Forces officials stress JTF2 had left the compound before the killings took place. Canadian military reports indicate the elderly Afghan man was in U.S. custody and died after being struck in the head by a U.S. soldier's rifle butt. The girl's body was discovered after the raid at the bottom of the village well. It is believed she fell down the well in the confusion of the night-time special forces strike.

The Canadian reports note while any prisoners were in Canadian custody they were handled properly.

The Pentagon has stated it will not apply the Geneva Convention to prisoners turned over to their forces, but will treat such individuals humanely.

Canadian military police did make one trip to the U.S. "enemy prisoner of war" facility located at Kandahar airfield. According to police that facility was also visited by the International Red Cross. While the facility was austere, the police determined detainees were being properly treated at the time.

But human rights agencies note a number of Afghans have died while in U.S. custody in Afghanistan. Two of those have been classified by U.S. military pathologists as homicides. The third is still under investigation.

Canadian Forces officers were also sensitive concerning the language used to describe its prisoners in official reports. In a report from the Chief of the Defence Staff Gen. Ray Henault, the term "persons are captured" was changed to "persons have been taken under custody" before the documents were sent on to the defence minister.

More than 500 people from 40 nations are being detained at Guantanamo Bay. It is unknown how many were captured by Canadian troops. A number have been at the prison for more than three years with no charges laid against them. They have also been denied legal representation. Another 208 prisoners have been released. Of those 62 were transferred to the custody of their home countries.

Last week lawyers for Canadian citizen Omar Khadr alleged at Guantanamo Bay he was drugged, threatened with sexual attack and repeatedly chained in stressful positions.

Mr. Khadr, now 18, has been in Guantanamo for the past 2 1/2 years. His family once lived with Osama bin Laden.

His lawyers allege the federal government failed to protect the Canadian citizen from torture. But Dan McTeague, parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs, has said the Canadian government was given assurances by the U.S. Mr. Khadr is being treated in a humane way and the government takes the Americans at their word.

According to the FBI e-mails released in December by the American Civil Liberties Union, the Guantanamo prisoners were chained to the floor for 24 hours at a time. No food or water was provided and prisoners were allowed to defecate on themselves.

FBI officers also complained guards used snarling dogs to intimidate prisoners, a tactic the Pentagon had previously denied was being used.

© The Ottawa Citizen 2005

http://www.canada.com/fortstjohn/story.html?id=cf33bada-d84a-4a70-b1be-21686cdef700&page=1
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Offline Sheep Dog AT

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Re: Canada's JTF2 captives vanish at Guantanamo
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2005, 17:23:53 »
"In August 2003, a Canadian military intelligence officer reminded colleagues that Canada had an obligation under the law of armed conflict, as well as a national obligation, to track the detainees its troops captured even after they were handed over to another country."

If thats true then whats the case here. 

On another note the writer seems to like the word JTF2. :)
Apparently infamous for his one liners.
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Offline Infanteer

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Re: Canada's JTF2 captives vanish at Guantanamo
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2005, 17:38:30 »
 :boring: - must be a quiet news day if all we are falling back on is stories of terrorists being put in a cage.
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline kincanucks

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Re: Canada's JTF2 captives vanish at Guantanamo
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2005, 17:45:41 »
 :boring: :boring: :boring:

Next!
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Offline JasonH

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Re: Canada's JTF2 captives vanish at Guantanamo
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2005, 17:51:48 »
:boring: - must be a quiet news day if all we are falling back on is stories of terrorists being put in a cage.

Hey, give me a break I'm looken as hard as I can!  :blotto:
It is foolish to mourn who died.  Rather we should thank God that such man lived.
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Offline recceguy

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Re: Canada's JTF2 captives vanish at Guantanamo
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2005, 18:29:53 »
I feel like I'm watching Seinfeld
At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child – miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied, demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless. Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats.
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Offline the 48th regulator

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Re: Canada's JTF2 captives vanish at Guantanamo
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2005, 20:06:12 »
I feel like I'm watching Seinfeld

Roger that, Giddee up!!

I know that I’m not perfect and that I don’t claim to be, so before you point your fingers make sure your hands are clean.

Offline recceguy

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Re: Canada's JTF2 captives vanish at Guantanamo
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2005, 21:17:09 »
At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child – miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied, demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless. Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats.
-P.J. O’Rouke-


DISCLAIMER - my opinion may cause manginal irritation.

Offline CBH99

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Re: Canada's JTF2 captives vanish at Guantanamo
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2005, 00:20:10 »
Nobody else worried that provisions under the Geneva Convention are maybe not being followed?  Nobody else cares that our soldiers captured these detainees, and are expected under law to keep tabs on them once they are turned over to a foreign country?  Pity.    >:(
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Offline Sheep Dog AT

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Re: Canada's JTF2 captives vanish at Guantanamo
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2005, 00:56:45 »
"In August 2003, a Canadian military intelligence officer reminded colleagues that Canada had an obligation under the law of armed conflict, as well as a national obligation, to track the detainees its troops captured even after they were handed over to another country."
Apparently infamous for his one liners.
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Offline CBH99

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Re: Canada's JTF2 captives vanish at Guantanamo
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2005, 02:28:00 »
CFL - what was the point of that last post?  You just quoted something that had already been quoted -
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Offline bgpipes

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Re: Canada's JTF2 captives vanish at Guantanamo
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2005, 06:43:55 »
How do you keep someone from defecating on themselves??.....A cork up the bum eh?? :blotto: :blotto: :blotto:

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Re: Canada's JTF2 captives vanish at Guantanamo
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2005, 07:16:01 »
CFL - what was the point of that last post?   You just quoted something that had already been quoted -
Well, your post above that one says "nobody else worried..."....so draw your own conclusions...  
Quote
"In August 2003,
obviously somebody was worried.....
« Last Edit: February 15, 2005, 07:19:50 by Blakey »